Yet another stake (not steak) thread

Imho (or Ime):

The Ti wires hold almost as well as the tubes, but they do NOT break, and they can be pounded in when tubes either bend, break or refuse. And you can get them back out again.

More than a few have found the Ground Hogs can and do break.
The carbon fibre tubes do break in hard soil when hit.
6" stakes are not nearly as good as 8" stakes.
Nails, with a hole at the head, also break when hit.

Cheers

Hi Charlie,

Never been to the Sierra Nevadas but I do hike through some rocky terrain here in Washington. My preferred setup for anything other than sandy conditions, with my cat tarp or Hexamid Twin, is a set of Lawson Kline's shepherd hook stakes, two of them being his longer ones. When I have to dig cat holes, I'll bring an extra snow stake (purchased from REI I believe) for that purpose.

I've had better luck getting these thin ti stakes into the ground by finessing them between rocks than I had with my groundhogs. There are times where I can't even get them in due to rocks, in which case I'll use the stakes (or sticks) and ballast to set it up as a deadmans (er deadmen?). Mike Clelland wrote something on this which you can find on the forums here somewhere with illustration.

Even if the stakes go in, I'll often times put rocks on top of them. Also, I'd pass on Zpacks guy lines and buy Lawson's glowire or whatever it's called these days. I've never had their guylines fail on me but I've found the sheath wears through pretty fast. Probably wouldn't hurt to have a couple/few feet of guyline in your repair kit either.

Roger, what diameter are your Ti wires, and are they grade 5?

Having gone through the stake process I've settled on Ti wire stakes. I've done a couple of JMT thru's plus various shorter hikes in the Sierra and have found the wire stakes the best solution. Occasionally I can't get a stake in but there is no shortage of rocks up there to tie off too. I just checked my stake bag–I currently have a mix of 6-6.5" 5-6gr stakes. Probably purchased from Zpacks, Lawson, Litetrail. Sure, they bend but a readjustment between two rocks is a quick fix.
One thing I don't like about wire stakes is they are easy to loose. My current stakes have both orange and green painted heads. The colors sometimes aid in finding them and sometimes not. I think someone posted on BPL about using blue paint and found the color more visible. It would depend on the terrain I suppose. My trail name is Still Lookin' which should be a clue to why I mention the loss problem.
One thing I've discovered over the years is that in any established campsite you'll find a stake if you look hard enough. I've certainly contributed to this phenomenon over the years.

I really like these 9" carbon fiber "Sorex" stakes from Ruta Locura. They have metal tips and heads, so they can take rock pounding and have some ability to push through stuff. Longer is better for sure. 7.5 grams, $3 each.

http://www.rutalocura.com/Tent_Stakes.html

"One thing I don't like about wire stakes is they are easy to loose"

As are the stake bags which I donated to some lucky camper at the GGG this year.

I thought about painting them but am now considering plati dipping them with the hopes that will be more durable. Anyone here try that?

> Roger, what diameter are your Ti wires, and are they grade 5?
My Ti wire stakes are 1/8" or 3.2 mm diameter.

Grade 5 is fuly annealed. I doubt that hard-drawn Ti wire falls into that category. I KNOW that bending the wire is very hard to do safely: too tight and it cracks. I can bend it with a proper rolling bending jig, or I can bend it when red hot.

Hey – most of them are just commercial Ti wire stakes, probably from one of the Chinese Ti factories. The rest I have made myself from 1/8" ELI Ti welding wire.

But I repeat: they have never let me down.

HTH
Cheers

> considering plati dipping them
Um … what does that mean? I assume it does NOT mean platinum plating …

Cheers
PS: orange base colour with black and blue stripes! Hand painted.

"orange base colour with black and blue stripes! Hand painted."

Gaudy colors are good. However, the part of the stake that you need to see most is the very top of the stake, and the rest of it tends to be buried. Unfortunately, that top is the part that gets struck when you pound it into the ground. So, the pounding tends to loosen and detach the paint. I always end up with painted stakes that have divots on top.

–B.G.–

Hi Bob

Yeah, well, true, the paint does chip sometimes.

However, when the Ti wire is in the ground it has a guy rope hooked over it, so I don't need to be able to see the paint then. On the other hand, if I drop a wire or two in the grass, THEN I need to see the paint. Works for me.

Cheers

It helps me to use glow-in-the-dark guy cords for night. Then, at least I know where the stakes are supposed to be. If I pull the cords up, then the wire stakes should pop out regardless of the paint color.

–B.G.–

"Um … what does that mean? I assume it does NOT mean platinum plating …"

http://www.plastidip.com/

I'll probably just spray paint a couple and see how that works out first before pursuing this option.

Thanks everyone for the tips!

So, for Sierra I should be looking at the Ti wire stakes. I'm looking at Lawson "UL Long" which are 7.5" and 7.25g. Or maybe a mix of half those and half regular 6.25" lenghths (6.25g).

I'm not quite sure what the ground is like at Pukaskwa but I'm guessing it is more…soily (there is granite there but it is 2.6 billion years old). And I'm looking at early June so it could be stormy. I think maybe I will pick up two Easton 8" Nanos for the ridgeline.

And I'll spray paint everything a nice hot pink.

Apparently no one thinks multiuse cat-hole digger is a good idea.

When I was camping in the Sierras I would bring a handful of Lawsons regular length Ti wire stakes and two MSR Groundhogs. I would get Lawson's long version if I were purchasing them now. In reference to using the Groundhog as a cat-hole digger, it works well but a found stick works just as well and you don't have to decommission your tarp to do your "business". If you're in a spot that you can't get a stake into you may have better luck with longer guylines and using rock anchors.

"So, for Sierra I should be looking at the Ti wire stakes. I'm looking at Lawson "UL Long" which are 7.5" and 7.25g. Or maybe a mix of half those and half regular 6.25" lenghths (6.25g)."

I have a mix. I use the longer ones for my Hexamid Twin's peak and the one dead center in the rear. For my Grace Solo, I use them at both ends. There are some places where I can't get stakes all the way into the ground with the longer stakes but can with the smaller ones. In those situations, I really like having a mix.

"Apparently no one thinks multiuse cat-hole digger is a good idea."

Well I carry a snow stake. It doesn't get a lot of use with my shelter but I do encounter sandy conditions from time to time where I'll use it along with some sticks I'll use in lieu of the ti stakes. Also, when I have to use my stakes (or sticks) as a deadman with ballast, I'll use the snow stake in that situation too instead of one of my shepherd hook ti stakes.

"Apparently no one thinks multiuse cat-hole digger is a good idea."

I carry one SMC snow stake to use as a digger and also as an extra long stake. I did a little grinding to put a sharper edge on it. The edge is not enough to cut, but it will penetrate difficult earth better.

–B.G.–

I'm still finding little info/opinions on Ti V stakes, such as the 9.6g Toaks (I only picked those because they are on ZPacks accessories page). I did find one post suggesting Ti V might bend easily but they were referring to some other 6g stake. Obviously a 6g V will bend more than a 9.6g V just as could be said for Ti wire stakes. MSR Ground Hog Mini (Y shaped Aluminum) is almost exactly the same weight and size, but I have to assume that same-weight Al is weaker than Ti (or am I wrong?).

The holes along the length of these V's also seems to me to be an advantage: You could more easily tie off at the middle for dead-man, or tie off below the top if, say, you couldn't get one all the way in.

OK. I've read and digested one opinion above that pull-out difficulty is something I should concern myself with. I don't want to cause offence but do others consider that a very big issue? I'm also having trouble understanding the "Ti wire is better in high Sierra ground" opinion. Clearly, no stake on the market will go through granite. However, what one is left with in high Sierra (I mean higher up more than JMT campsites) is sort of a sandy crumbly material.

Sorry for persistent questions. I have nothing else to do in February in the middle of a polar vortex.

Ye olde Ground Hog stake of yore has changed.

To wit:

1.The 3 "vanes" on the stakes are now curved for better retention in "iffy" ground.
2. There is now a shorter version of the GH for those of the SUL persuasion.

And yes, I've found Ground Hog stakes of any vintage to be the toughest aluminum stakes (for their weight class) around. I regularly whack them with sticks or stomp them in and so far only minimal bending on two stakes.

These stakes are "Marine proof" and likely even Boy Scout proof.

Thanks Eric. But can you or anyone say if these are tougher than comparably weighted Ti V? The price difference is trivial. (Edit: well, trivial next to a $600 tent or a $2000 camera lens…)

If it helps any, I should say that I'm OK with spending $$ for weight reduction or performance. I'm much more reluctant to sacrifice performance for weight. There are nuances to that, of course, but that's just where I happen to lean.

Sierra and California specific, I am.

I use groundhogs for all applications where there will be a load on the stake. Ti hooks are only used for the secondary tie outs. All stakes are set at an angle, not just pounded in vertically.

> if these are tougher than comparably weighted Ti V?
The Ti stakes are vastly stronger than ANY aluminium stake.

I can pound Ti wires into rocky ground without any fear of any bending, using not a stick or a boot, but a rock. Yes, into decaying granite crud.

Ha – one time I was pounding them into cracked mudstone, and the mudstone I was using as a hammer kept breaking. But the Ti wires did not bend.

I found the Groundhog heads to be really weak. Bend and break easily in comparison.

Cheers

So how many backpackers have a titanium spork but aluminum tent stakes? I don't get it.

I just priced these and Ti V stakes are 10 cents more expensive than MSR Mini Groundhogs. Same size, weight and almost same shape (V versus Y; the Ti are marginally wider). OK, to be fair, the big Groundhogs are 50 cents cheaper. But how many BPL readers really worry about 8 x 50 cents?

[Full disclosure: I hate sporks. They are a marriage of the spoon's shortcomings with a fork's shortcomings. Except for the purpose of self-harm, a titanium spork has got to be the most poorly thought-out item in backpacking history. ;-) ]

"[Full disclosure: I hate sporks. They are a marriage of the spoon's shortcomings with a fork's shortcomings. Except for the purpose of self-harm, a titanium spork has got to be the most poorly thought-out item in backpacking history. ;-) ]"

Well you're obviously an idiot.

(Kidding. Just trying to keep in the general BPL spirit.)

But I see it completely opposite: just enough of a spoon married to just enough of a fork.
I'm a long time, dedicated titanium spork aficionado but I will concede that the strength is a bit silly. But I like plastic even less….

>But can you or anyone say if these are tougher than comparably weighted Ti V?
>The price difference is trivial.

Significantly tougher in my experience. I have yet to bend or break a groundhog stake. I have now bent two V type ti stakes, and broken one. (Vargo Ascent V stakes)I think this is more of a design issue than a materials issue.

The Vargo Titanium Crevice stake looks very interesting and I am guessing it is significantly tougher.