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Layering System for Those Who Sweat a Lot????

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Matt Bowler BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 5:49 am

What is the best layering approach for those who inevitably sweat a lot? Other than just wearing less and in addition to venting…

I have always had somewhat of a dilemma in that I am a sweater. If I am exerting myself I am going to sweat. If I wear less I end up just being cold and even colder once my layers get damp. My question and comments are a result of my experience layering for backpacking as well as for biking and for cold weather sea kayaking under a dry suit.

When I sweat I eventually just soak my baselayer as it can’t move moisture fast enough to my midlayer. I generally use merino as a baselayer, but recently started using a Capilene 1. My initial thoughts on the Cap 1 are that it does not perform as well as the merino because once it gets soaked it is not as warm as the merino.

So what’s the best approach here? If the baselayer is going to get soaked do you think it is better to just accept that and stick with the merino which is a better insulator when wet? Or do you think it is better to do away with the baselayer and wear something thicker next to the skin that is more absorbant and can hold more water on the outside….like a Patagonia R1? Or maybe the Cap4 which I recently got but have been using as a midlayer.

I have found that when I take my shirt off that my skin is relatively dry (which means that the baselayer is doing its job) but even if this is the case the baselayer is saturated which means you have a wet conductive layer right next to your skin.

Thanks

Matt

HkNewman BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 6:48 am

Brand alert: Patagonia, REI, Westcomb, Prana, and Glad trash bags.

I generate a lot of heat, so I usually can hold off on stopping for rainwear more than most. It's the insensible perspiration that gets ya (I can sense when the armpits are getting sweaty and can slow down). Layers if I cannot retreat fast enough (remote high country, etc..):

3-seasons alpine: Merino 1>Cap 1 under a REI Sahara Tech long sleeve button front shirt. Maybe a Houdini. Ok into a short light rain at 13k. Anything more… change mid- and outer layers with 100 wt/R1 type fleece, and topped with a Westcomb eVent rainshell. I'll try to use the Houdini at $99 to take the abuse instead of the more expensive Westcomb. I'll bring a Cap 1 (silkwt) or 2 LS (lightwt) if it gets really nasty, though it's more a sleep layer.

Legs I'm good with softshell shorts to almost freezing (stretch Zion from Prana which work for most of my adventures). In camp I'll switch to REI MTS midwt long john bottoms and Houdini pants which I can wear on the move as well if the shorts aren't warm enough. Still trying to decide whose rain sk.. kilt will replace my black trash bag (Glad brand).

Summer: lighter versions of mid and rainshell: microfleece MH pullover (may switch out with all-weather base-like hoody if my speed on solos improves), Montane eVent Spektr pullover, maybe a Patagonia Cap 1 for long johns.

All that said, I've hiked to the top of mountains in pre-winter squalls with guys wearing jeans (but 3-layer system top layers). They were glad for a fire later on.

PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 6:53 am

http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/shop/product_Outdoor-Research-Men-s-Echo-LS-Zip-Tee_10207428_10208_10000001_-1_?cm_mmc=PPC-_-GooglePlusBox-_-Outdoor-Research-_-Outdoor-Research-Men-s-Echo-LS-Zip-Tee&ad_id=GooglePlusBox&utm_source=GooglePlusBoxl&utm_medium=PLA&utm_campaign=Outdoor-Research-Men's-Echo-LS-Zip-Tee&kpid=1469251&gclid=CIe5o_Oc6cMCFQEcaQod2E0AuQ

This is my favorite shirt ever. Less that 4.5 ounces, supreme ventilation options (roll up sleeves, deep chest ventilation) and even if it does get soaked, its quick to dry, oh and by the way it had polygiene so it doesn't stink to high heaven as quickly as other synthetics.

You could also not change anything about your base layer and just have a dry shirt to change into at camp. That's a typical practice. For rest stops, throwing your mid layer on over the wet shirt should be sufficient. Having camp clothes is definitely a nice thing to have a lot of the time but in my experience the above shirt allows me to just have the 1 shirt because I can keep it dry by the end of the day.

Hope that helps

James holden BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 7:28 am

There is no good way to answer your question without knowing the temps and conditions youre moving at

For example soaking through your layers and staying wet (warm and wet is a myth when stopped unless u have a ton of insulation) might be fine in the summer but in the winter it can be a death sentence

And with modern clothing managing sweat is more of a matter of technique than any particular specific piece of clothing … There is no gear silver bullet

Wear minimal layers when moving … If youre adding more layers when yr already sweating youll just be sweating more even if you dont notice it, as the extra layers will absorb the sweat for awhile

If you cant adjust yr layers or pace constantly because yr on technical climbs or moving fast … You can use a single thicker but highly breatable and quick drying powerdry layer

To prevent "flash off" but on insulation the moment u stop … Or wear a highly brethable windshirt to created a microclimate

I find wool a poor choice if yr going hard and are sweating in it all the time … Wool might feel less cold when a bit damp, but when its soaked and its cold outside it wont dry out, while a syntheic will in camp under enough insulation

To put it simply despite all the best attempts by marketers to sell "warm when wet" clothing … When a garmet is soaked its all hocus pocus … No garment can take the place of proper heat management techniques

If yr warm when moving, take something off … If yr cold when stopped put something on …

Thats all there is to it for the last few decades

;)

PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 8:16 am

"What is the best layering approach for those who inevitably sweat a lot? Other than just wearing less and in addition to venting…If I wear less I end up just being cold and even colder once my layers get damp."

So you're going to be wet, regardless.
We're the opposite in that I don't sweat unless overheating, and wear however little it takes to stay dry, regardless of temperature, but both grid fleece and Powerstretch under a shell have been surprisingly comfortable when it was cool and I was stuck being soaking wet all day.
I'd give that Cap4 a try under a windshirt.

Art … BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 8:28 am

what about a vapor barrier technique.
if your base layer is gonna get wet just let it stay wet.
wear a minimal base layer like Cap 1, with a barely breathable layer over it (a barely breathable windshirt or similar).
then wear any true warmth layers you need over that. the warmth layers at least will stay dry and the semi vapor barrier layer will help hold in warmth.
I have heard that this technique encourages the body to reduce its sweating, but not sure about this.
it may be advisable to have a spare base layer for when you stop permanently.

PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 9:29 am

You might want to look into fishnet baselayers. There's a BPL article on it that's quite helpful.

Dale Wambaugh BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 9:45 am

Don't overdress, use synthetic insulation and well ventilated shells and carry a spare base layer. Nothing is better than peeling off a sopping layer and putting on a dry one. Of course in hot summer weather, a silkweight baser layer will dry quickly while wearing. Count on being wet and being able to deal with it.

If you dont have a spare and are cold/wet, you can wear your mid layer fleece alone (100w, Power Stretch, R1, Cap4) while it dries.

I know I'm dressed right if I'm a little cold when I start out. Don't be afriad to stop and alter layers when you are too warm. I might hike uphill with just a base layer and add a windshirt for exposed flat traverses and downhill if I'm cold.

Nico . BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 10:06 am

I share part of the OP's problem… I too sweat quite a bit, but I don't really ever have trouble with the cold. Instead I tend to run too hot and require very little to say warm while moving or in camp. For most of my hikes (year-round in southern CA and summer/fall in the Sierra), you won't find me hiking in much more than a pair of running shorts and a thin merino or synthetic shirt. Anything more, unless it's below freezing and snowing, will simply result in me overheating. Even still, my shirt will be soaked through with sweat.

I find using a baselayer with a more open weave works better for helping to manage some of the perspiration than the tighter weave shirts like the Cap 1. The Cap 1, while being the lightest, always feels stuffy to me. The Cap 2, even though it's a little heavier/thicker has a much looser weave that seemed to move perspiration better. I'm a big fan of the thinnest merino 1 shirts too, although long-term durability has been a concern.

Since I know my hiking baselayer will be soaked through, I pack an additional extra light baselayer shirt or thin midlayer (like a long sleeve merino 2 t-shirt or Cap 4 hoodie) that I can layer over my base if I need a little more warmth while walking or to throw on while taking a break. More often than not though, this extra layer is used solely as my camp/sleeping shirt. It gives me a chance to get the wet shirt off and let it dry out.

HkNewman BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 10:19 am

Yeah, I love just hiking in a long sleeve thin base layer, but thin base layers tend to wear out, so I've been thinking of cutting off the sleeves of a synthetic shirts if the sleeves wear out, using the rest as a vest. Realize this will not win me any MYOG award…

Art … BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 10:20 am

"" I find using a base layer with a more open weave works better for helping to manage some of the perspiration than the tighter weave shirts like the Cap 1. The Cap 1, while being the lightest, always feels stuffy to me. The Cap 2, even though it's a little heavier/thicker has a much looser weave that seemed to move perspiration better. ""

completely agree with this.

PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 10:38 am

Mathew,

"If I am exerting myself I am going to sweat. If I wear less I end up just being cold and even colder once my layers get damp"

I hear your pain. Applies to me too. No way for me to stop it. My strategy is to:

(1) Wear the least amount of clothing that will keep me warm while moving.

(2) Assume everything I'm wearing will get soaking, dripping wet (from shoes/socks to hat).

(3) Change into dry clothing when I stop for more than a few minutes or get to comp.

(4) Put wet clothing back on when I start moving again so I can keep my dry set dry.

(5) Use a closed cell foam float coat as my primary insulating garment, partial sleep pad, backpack cushioner and rain coat.

Warm and Wet in Seattle

PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 11:04 am

I've been bike commuting all winter, and it's tough. In Massachusetts, the temperatures fluctuate between -10 and 30º, sometimes in the same day. I'm exerting myself every trip, and I sweat like a horse (luckily, I don't smell too bad).

– If it's above 10º, I wear a wool baselayer, a wool midlayer, and a windbreaker. To address the OP's concern directly, I use a rain shell as a windbreak with the pit zips open to vent heat. I find that the loss in breathability is ok; the decrease in air permeability means I'm losing less heat to air circulation across my wet layers. So, it's much warmer without being stifling.

– If it's near 0º, I wear the same, but with a light synthetic puffy vest under my windbreaker.

– If it's below 0º, I swap the puffy for a midweight fleece. Wool base, Wool mid, Fleece, Windbreak.

– If it's even colder, I'll wear a synthetic hoodie as an outerlayer over the fleece, but that rarely happens.

Extremeties and face are the challenge. I wear a massive set of synthetic puffy mitts and I have some pretty intense thermal socks. If it's melty out, around 20º, I'll wear gore-tex socks with a wool liner.

For my face, I grew a beard. It sucks, but my head is too big for most balaclavas and I'm stubborn.

Ian BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 11:15 am

Military polypros are pretty awesome when it comes to keeping moisture away from the body. I'd wear them for weeks at a time while sweating like a pig without issue.

If I think I'm going to actually wear the insulation while moving, which would be well below freezing, then I'd bring a fleece.

Lots of old threads on this very topic.

PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 2:50 pm

I'd rather see new threads than resurrect/search through old ones.

It's an opportunity for updated responses (did the Arcteryx Nuclei exist when the last thread rolled through? How about the stifling new Houdini?). Additionally, it lets frequently asked questions get exposure for new members and those who missed the last go-round.

I really don't mind the bi-monthly "Which sleep system? What shoes? Which backpack?" threads. In a perfect world, we'd all be on the same page, but that doesn't happen.

Ian BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 2:57 pm

Point taken Max…. So does anyone here have any thoughts on the Sawyer mini? :)

FYI just pointing out a resource and not playing the forum police. Moisture management in the wintertime is a very worthy topic of conversation.

We'd reduce the number of new threads to a very small fraction of what they are if we didn't keep revisiting and updating the same conversations over and over again. Very few topics here haven't been covered elsewhere in the forums in some meaningful way.

Although I do want to file a BPL grievance here as I was hoping to read something about a new miracle thread as my repair kit needs updating. I guess I'll stick with good ole dental floss.

PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 3:24 pm

Doug, I switch between drop/flat bars often depending on conditions (road bike for yucky days, mountain bike for dangerously terrible days).

I get anxiety thinking about my Stoic mitts getting lost or ruined, because I cannot find another suitable super-puffy synthetic mitt under $40 on the market. The stoic mitts were $89 new and I got them on sale for $35 in size XL, right before they went out of stock.

May they live forever.

kevperro . BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 6:21 pm

I think most people wear too much to begin with. All of the sales pitch about transporting moisture makes people think they should be wearing all these technical pieces. If your body is sweating it is by design trying to remove excessive heat. Don't complicate the process by putting on insulation.

I hike 99% of the time in a cotton t-shirt and running shorts. I've hiked all day through snow with my shorts and a t-shirt. In driving rain/sleet I'd throw on a rain top. I don't ever layer on the move unless I'm just not exerting myself (maybe on a down mountain stretch). So… if you sweat a lot or not doesn't really matter. You use the same approach. Don't layer up unless you stop moving or in case of extreme weather events. You need dry clothing for when you stop exerting yourself and your body cools. Keep them in your pack (and dry!)until the need really arrises.

Todd T BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 7:35 pm

I don't exactly sweat a "lot," but like the OP I *always* sweat if I exert myself. I could be completely shirtless and still sweat as I shivered on up the trail with skin so clammy cold I could make ice cream. What I've found for myself when it's cold:

* I wear a little insulation so I don't lose feeling in my fingers. I don't worry about the sweat. Fleece is best.

* When I stop on the trail I immediately put my windshirt on over the fleece. It makes a huge difference and is all I need as long as I'm only stopping briefly (e.g., to eat lunch, enjoy a view).

* When I stop at camp I immediately change into dry clothes, including fresh underwear (that stretchy waistband will stay wet and keep me chilled all evening/night).

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedFeb 17, 2015 at 10:02 pm

I wear thin nylon (Supplex) shirt and pants. They're usually damp when I'm done hiking, but they dry off within an hour or so. While they're drying off, I still have some body heat from hiking so by the time my metablosim slows, they're dry.

PostedFeb 18, 2015 at 5:17 am

This is a good thread to revive. I think there’s a significant difference between those who sweat a normal amount under exertion, and those who sweat profusely nearly all of the time. Unfortunately, I’m one of the latter. For the most part, I stay in good backpacking shape year round and yet I still sweat tons on every hike, regardless of season, pack load, how fast or slow I hike, or ‘layering systems’. It took me a long time to find out what works for me, particularly here in the PNW, where even in the summer a majority of my hikes keep me in the cool forest shade. When you’re dealing with a sweat drenched baselayer, it does not take much of a breeze to become cold.

Here’s what I've discovered:
Baselayer: merino’s ‘warm when wet’ does not work for me; as much as I love wearing merino, it soaks up more, retains more, dries much slower than synthetic, and on a multi-day trip becomes unnecessarily heavy; a soaking wet baselayer can add pounds. I only wear a thin merino short sleeve if it is a summer trip with lots of sun where I know I can dry it out on a rock in an hour or two, like in the Sierras. I’ve gone back to thin synthetics. They stink, they don’t feel as nice, but they dry faster, especially under insulation. As much as I’d like to keep my clothing weight low low low, I’ve learned that I need to bring an extra dry baselayer, even something silkweight. At night, I’ll put that on, then my wet baselayer. then my insulation. That usually does a fair job of drying out my shirt for the next day.

Rainwear: Sadly, I’ve come to realize that all the progress in breathable materials does not apply to me. I’ve spent more than a few years chasing breathable waterproof jackets, but when you sweat a lot, it just won’t make a difference. None. Only one thing will: pit zips. (And for bottoms, I use a zpacks kilt)

Insulation on the move: After years of trying varied materials and layering combinations, I have found one piece of clothing that has become invaluable, allowing me to remain comfortable in my sweaty skin: Patagonia R2 jacket. On hikes that keep me in the shade or cooler altitudes, in shoulder seasons and winter, this jacket has served me well. I abandoned fleece about the time the Patagonia Nano came out, concentrating on the ‘lightest’ clothing. But I finally came back around to my beloved R2. Under it I wear a thin synthetic, short or long sleeve, depending on temps. I always have a windshell within reach for when I stop (I use an Arc Squamish because it’s a perfect fit over the R2). I prefer the R2 jacket over an R1 hoody because I can regulate better with a full zipper, however, in the winter, I’ll wear an R1 hoody under the jacket. In camp, I'll throw a synthetic or down jacket over the R2.

As a sweaty person, I’ve come to accept several things that will never change:
I will always have to deal with wet clammy skin despite the season.
Anything marketed as breathable or moisture wicking, even if it is legit, will not apply to me.
And finally, I will always have a heavier base weight than I’d like because being someone who sweats a lot requires different considerations than someone who doesn’t.

Hope that helps.

HkNewman BPL Member
PostedFeb 18, 2015 at 6:17 am

I hike 99% of the time in a cotton t-shirt and running shorts….

Thought of this for deserts/dry summer forecasts but keep a light version of the 3-layer system in the pack

PostedFeb 18, 2015 at 7:38 am

Like the OP, and like whalen, if I'm exerting, I'm going to sweat no matter what I'm wearing or the temp. I sweat a lot thru my head! So even in very cold weather, I'm often only wearing a headband instead of a full beanie (and I mean even in 5-10 degree temps).

There are a few things that aren't very popular in the States, or among BPLers really, because they're not, at first blush, light, but they work very well for me.

For warm weather, even if it's raining, I wear a very light shirt (Phase SL I believe) and simply get wet. It's not a problem.

Cooler weather, I wear a Rab vapor-rise light smock either by itself or with a very light base layer. I'm still gonna sweat, but it moves moisture better than anything else I've tried, and dries very fast. I also bring some type of shell in case it rains.

In really cold weather – 10 degrees or colder – I wear a Montane Resolute smock (heavy pile). It's heavy, a tad over two pounds, but it's all I need – no shell, no windbreaker, no layers, except perhaps a light base layer if it's 0 or below. When I did the Michigan trip last winter, I wore it with no base layer, and I'd be sweating pretty well during the day on the move, but not really feel wet unless I felt my skin. Did not feel cold when we stopped for lunch without putting anything else on. At the end of the day, by the time we made camp and I had my shelter set up, I was dry. So was the smock. To me, it's an amazing piece for really cold weather backpacking. I pair it with a pair of Rab vapor-rise pants.

Edit to add: I bring a Kobuk jacket to hang around in camp after the shelter is set up.

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