Pitching a Tent in the Snow

Hi Ralph

> this is an accepted and necessary thing at times
Too right! Fine calm still 'warm' sunny afternoons – anything goes. Way sub-freezing and a strong wind – where else would you be?

The hazard depends on several factors. If you are using a canister stove then lighting up is not dangerous. Priming a liquid fuel stove can be far more of a hazard. It is possible to do it 'safely' in a vestibule, but it takes practice, and should be done with a little ethanol rather than white gas too.

The CO issue has been extensively covered in our series of articles on that. ventilation is always necessary.

One or two stove manufacturers go hysterical at the mere suggestion of cooking in the vestibule – MSR are well-known for this (too many lawyers). They are ignoring both reality and safety: you don't sit outside at night in a howling storm in the snow! Hypothermia, here we come.

> Where can I go to find this covered more extensively?
Hum, yeah, we had already thought about that one! It's sort of in the planning stage right now. In the meantime, have a go, cautiously. I would recommend a remote canister stove as being a good safe choice.

Cheers

Hi Bob and Ralph

> * Flare up when lighting the stove can damage your tent.
Too right. A good solution is to use a canister stove instead.

> * Spilled fuel getting ignited. You could wind up with a fire blocking your tent's only exit.
Too right. A good solution is to use a canister stove instead.
Mind you, if one end of the tent was alight, I am sure I could find another exit real quick! :-)

> * Spilling a pot of water and getting your sleeping bag or clothing soaked
Ah – this one is a function of the tent vestibule. If it is very small or non-existent, then yes, it is a problem. But a good winter tent will have a decent vestibule for cooking in (by definition). Spilt water out there does not matter.

Does that mean that tents like the Black Diamond Ahwahnee and I-tent are not 'good' winter tents? Without their optional vestibule, dead right imho. OK for an emergency bivouac maybe, but not for decent living.

Cheers

Bob,
Roger has done articles on stoves (in cold temps). Extremely useful information in there. I routinely bug him about trying to melt snow (efficiently and in lightweight style of course) in the winter – he loves it…ask away! I think he invented the stove :)

If you look a few threads down, I have a winter stove question awaiting his answer (hint hint Roger) ;)

p.s. You'll know when it's time to go with the inverted canister when it takes 1 hour to boil a liter of water/melt snow…or you simply can't do it.

Gerry
Sorry I did not spot this earlier.
Yes the 08 version of the Rainbow and DR have grommets at the end of the cross strut sleeve so that you can insert a trekking pole tip there and guy it out.
Easy enough to do with the earlier versions , but I haven't bothered.
Henry sells a 9mm pole as an option, I can't find it at the TT site but send them an E Mail request if you are interested. Apparently it's about 30% stronger than the standard version. From memory that is about right according to some charts I spotted some time ago (maybe from Easton)
Note that the Rainbow in Steven's shot can take the poles but are not in use.
BTW according to another TT user the symmetrical shape of the DR will take more wind than the single. ( I knew that…, note the difference in the set up on the Rainbow page between Henry's prototype( top right) and mine underneath)
Franco

Anthony
Nice "glow "

Hi Bob

As Steve said, we have a number of articles at BPL on Winter Stoves and remote canister stoves. The easiest way to find some of them is to search on my name. :-)
You could also search on Will Rietveld.

Cheers

Roger said
"This is a Australian-made Antarctic tent, in use in the Antarctic. A pyramid. Very robust.
But please note: the fabric is canvas, and I think the pole is 2" diameter or something like that!"

Actually these have no centre pole, which is pretty nice. The black sleeves are pole sleeves which form a full frame. I'm not sure about the canvas though. I thought it was nylon. I'll ask on Sunday if you like.

Rod

You may want to check the new shovel by grivel.

Heavier than the snowclaw, but much more useful.

http://www.grivel.com/Products/tabella_rescue.asp

http://www.tvmountain.com/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=136&video_id=1130

One other point that must be made about tarptents and 3-season tents is that, while they certainly can be used in winter (the pictures of the Cloudburst at Yosemite and the Brawny Tarptent at Lassen and Yosemite in the article are mine), not only is snow and wind loading an issue, as Roger points out, but they will rapidly fill with spindrift in windy conditions. That means wet gear at the very least.

I used a Big Sky Evolution 2P at the same site as the Bibler Tempest in my pictures (different trip, but a spot that often gets extreme conditions), and, it was flattened by a blizzard, with spindrift infiltrating the tent interior long before that. No storm was forecast, and the tent was not built for such conditions, but you never know what you're going to get in winter…

The message isn't to not use open tents in winter – if you're careful about conditions, they can be a joy – but definitely be aware of how quickly spindrift can make life miserable in them. The previous suggestion of using a bivy sack is a good one and what I do, plus keeping other gear packed away in my pack, pulk, or sealed stuff sacks. However, unless I'm certain no storm is on its way, I'll generally bring a real winter tent that can be fully sealed up.

Hi Steve

> the ease of pitching dome tents in adverse conditions
Maybe I was not clear enough here. I was focusing on those light 2-pole pop-up domes where the inner goes up and then the fly is thrown over. In a gale, these really are a problem. In fact, any of the domes with just 2 or 3 long poles are a pitching problem due to the wind cross-section.

When the dome has many crossing poles I usually call it a geodesic dome, as do many others. These are much stronger – but also much heavier. The Saivo has 7 poles! Very strong.

The first dome tent I ever made, in the early 60s, had two long internal poles. Yes, pitching it in bad weather was 'interesting'! Mind you, at 7' square it had a LOT of room. I think we managed to get about 12 people in it in the snow once for a birthday party…

> joy of winter camping
Yes!

Cheers

Actually, I have reservations about calling the 'geodesic dome tents' by that name. This is a REAL geodesic dome, Buckminster Fuller style.

We built that in the 60s on Mt Feathertop for the Melbourne University Mountaineering Club. It was designed on an IBM 7044 mainframe computer (cost 1 million pounds!) by a final year engineering student there. As he was one of the first to have ever done that design on a computer, he got job offers from international companies like Boeing.

The girl at the front is my wife.

EDIT: it occurs to me that many of you guys might be amused at what happened that first winter. We built the dome, locked basement, ground floor and first floor, in the summer. It was great in the summer.

But the first winter, with 20 bodies inside and damp clothes hung up to dry, guess what? Condensation on the inside of the aluminium shell! It RAINED! Oh Dear, oh dear!

We had to line the shell the next summer with decent thick insulation.

Cheers

Yikes Chris! That's pretty impressive!
I would love to hear more details about how the Scarp faired in these conditions!

Roger said:

>When the dome has many crossing poles I usually call it a
>geodesic dome, as do many others. These are much stronger –
>but also much heavier. The Saivo has 7 poles! Very strong.

Just to be clear, seven crossing points, created by four equal-length poles. Very strong (and, as you note, relatively heavy at 10 pounds).

Chris:

Fantastic pictures! Good to see both tents stood up to the snow loading so well. I tried the Saivo but found it too cramped, vestibule included, and so went with the Jannu for my smaller winter tent. Haven't regretted the extra weight yet for solo use, though I tend to use a pulk most times in the winter these days, not a pack, so that makes the weight easier to bear.

Two with winter gear can squeeze into the Jannu as well, which seems out of the question for the Saivo and Scarp (though I'll be curious to hear what you think).