Your advice? How to switch paradigm

I didn’t look at the spreadsheet, but I share a lot of your preferences and locations for backpacking, and based on your stated requirements, I have no doubt that you can easily get to 17-24 pounds fully loaded starting weight depending on trip length (2-7 days), with no suffering required. Nice warm bag/quilt and a roomy and fully-enclosed tent. There are endless gear lists that you can peruse.

IMO, start by allocating about 5 pounds to tent, pack, and sleep system combined. That will be a great start and should not require much compromise.

https://youtube.com/@outsidecomfortzone?si=2oKj7TO4QIAyMl3I

First to deal with the cold sleeping.  It’s a truism that a warm hat and a better pad are the first place to start and rather than a 1-ounce thin beanie, step up to a fleece beanie or balaclava.  That added ounce will be well worth it

The Big Agnes 3P tent isn’t wrong since I got mine for under 200 dollars, but  it’s between car camping and UL backpacking, more of a scout-trip 3-mile “backpacking” trip.  The mainstream / in-the-know option would be the under-$300, under-2 pound Dan Durston 2P tent.

And the Klymt “insulated pad”?  Minimal googling suggests that once tested to ASTM standards, it’s R-value dropped from 4+ to 1.9.  Just adding a $18 closed-cell foam pad from Walmart would double the R-value between you and the cold ground.  Or going for the One-Pad-to-Rule-Them-All – something like a Therm-a-rest NeoAir X Lite would give you over twice the R-value for a lower weight.

I think your cheapest (i.e. free) weight savings would be to track how little clothes you could bring.  If you weren’t, at some point, wearing everything, you brought too many clothes.  Track that on future trips after upgrading your sleeping hat and sleeping pad.  One of your jobs is to remind day hikers how good they smell!

Incidentally, you should question your assumptions at every step. For example, you mention that the FF Flicker 20 is the lightest bag you could use. I looked at the specs, and I find it to be unnecessarily heavy for the warmth it is providing. The 2 bags that I use are equal or warmer than yours (based on fill power and fill weight), but weigh significantly less. Even my 10 degree bag weighs more than 3 oz less than your 20 degree bag. Apparently that FF company uses heavy shell/lining/zipper etc. that you are carrying for no reason. Shop around, read previous threads on this forum, and look at published gear lists.

In general, if you have focused on strong, sturdy, bullet-proof gear and have worried about damage and wear and tear, you may have to work to adjust your mindset. The gear that you need to reduce your weight is initially going to look flimsy at first. When I first received the pack that I typically use, it looked absurd to me, the straps were tiny, the hardware looked puny, the padding looked minimal to my eyes that were accustomed to beefier gear. 10 years later, it is still going strong. In my experience, almost all the gear that people on this forum recommend is more than sufficient for the type of backpacking you describe. It’s very difficult to get to the “stupid light” level, and I can only think of one piece of gear that I’ve stopped carrying because of repeated damage, and plenty of other people are happy with it (uberlite pad).

David Thomas, thank you!

I will look at Durston tents and at replacing the pad. This is exactly the sort of directives I’m looking for!

As for clothing – yes. I get stanky as anyone else during humid days in particular and am fine with that. And being able to change into some less nasty clothes for sleeping is high value for me. Agree this is mental, and for the moment it feels worth a pound. I could however at the least reduce that with more thoughtful items. I did wear almost everything on this trip, and we had mild conditions. And your point is well taken.

Thanks Dan also. I’ll look around for replacement bag – yes that was an assumption based on the research I did (asking a friend) years ago.

I’m not prioritizing durabilty in general, in my mind, I just haven’t been exposed to the featherlight stuff, so happy to hear more about it.

Could you care to share what are the bags you are referring to, as a starting point?

While you’re looking into Durston tent, check out their Kakwa 55 in ultra 200x.  It carries weight very well for a 2 lb pack, hard to beat in that regards.  I’ve carried 10 days food with gear for down to 20f and it handles it with no issues.  It’s also tough and handles cliff scrambling well.

A small thing, I slice off a halfish inch piece of scentless arm and hammer baking soda based deodorant stick and wrap it in cellophane then carry a small section of swedish cloth to clean up with daily before applying the deodorant and it avoids the hiker stank for no more than about an ounce penalty

I repackage solid deodorant into a Chapstick / lip balm tube.  And label it clearly!!!

Some wag is always commenting, “Man! You must have tiny little armpits!”

But in that same vein, I prize the little professional-sample (like 1/8 and 1/4-ounce) tubes of anti-fungal, anti-itch, sunscreen, etc lotions I snag from the doctor’s office and the tiny tubes of toothpaste from Asian airlines and hotels, refilling them from larger containers as needed before each trip.

Thanks Dan also. I’ll look around for replacement bag – yes that was an assumption based on the research I did (asking a friend) years ago.

To be fair, there is probably more upside (i.e. weight savings) in pack and tent replacement, but at some point, you could also look into bags/quilts and pads.

Pack: lots of options when you get the total load to <25-30lb with 7 days of food and water.  ULA, Gossamer Gear, Durston, Zpacks Arc Hauler, Seek Outdoors, KS Ultralight (with optional stays), etc. For example, my Arc Hauler would save you almost 4lbs.

Shelter: Durston xMid, Zpacks, Tarptent, etc… or lighter freestanding.  IF the shelter has a floor I don’t bother with ground cloth.’ Could easily save you 2.5lbs. If going when bugs are done a tarp + ground cloth (or breathable bivy) could save even more weight and let you cowboy camp when it’s not going to rain.

Flicker is a nice bag, but there are numerous classic quilts and several bottomless (often zipperless) bags which will be as warm while saving maybe 8oz?  Not a huge win considering the cost. Likely pass on making a change

Pad: If Klymit Insulated V is working for you, great. My memory is that it’s not that warm or comfortable.  I would look at the Nemo Tensor if you want warmer / more comfortable at approx same weight.  You could save weight for equiv warmth if you can make do with closed cell foam (doesn’t work for me).

Sleep Clothing: Could drop. I don’t bother with sleep shirt.  I typically hike in a nylon shirt. If it’s moderate humidity (CO, CA typically are) I can rinse, squeeze, and either hang or wear it dry in a couple of hours with stink gone. I can sleep in it,  or in my alpha direct hoody (my insulation piece which is good next to skin).  I used to carried a base for surprisingly cold conditions (stopped when switch to AD) I would sleep in my warm base. I don’t bother with sleep socks… historically used my backup hiking socks. I still carry an extra hiking socks, but since switching to XoSkin toe socks I can’t remember pulling the extra socks out.  Even if soaked during the day, the dry out by midnight if I wear them to bed.

Compass/signal mirror: drop. Between the inReach, GPS watch, and iPhone you have three devices that can give direction.  Between inReach and iPhone (using GlobalStar and clear view of sky) you can signal exact location.

Consider dropping some of the stuff sacks.

I am mostly converted to using a portable bidet like the HolyHiker which drops the amount of TP / wipes needed and with XoSkin compression shorts has eliminated monkey butt for me.

For power the 10K nitecore is hard to beat… but given my usage pattern that is only power for around 4-5 days.  For 7 days I would want 20k. Nitecore is good, but the DCHK Haribo branded power block seems to provide them same amount of power (out) as nitecore at 1/4 the price and slightly lighter?!

Deodorant: After years of not carrying I have started to bring Potassium Alum crystal which when removed from packaging is less than <1oz and keeps my stink way down, and lasts years of everyday use (thanks reddit /r/onebag for teaching me about it)

Forgot above

rather than dedicated cables for devices I carry a usb-c cable + adapters for devices than aren’t usb-c native which saves weight and space than dedicated cables for each device.  [working to have all my devices being just usb-c but not there yet]

I don’t bother with hard glasses case… just wrap in cloth to protect lens from scratches.  memory Ti frames can take abuse but not really needed… in middle of pack never had glasses damaged.

rain pants: unless expecting high winds and <40f don’t bother.  Leg movement keeps legs warm enough.  My Patagonia terrebonne joggers dry in a couple of hours with body heat (ferrosi just a bit slower).  I have been using some zpacks rain pants which are near the end of their life… when I replace them I will look for something that is up to a bit more abuse (especially butt and cuffs).  I am much harder on legs than torso.

toothpaste: been trying tabs.  nice in that I can take exactly the right amount but not sure it’s worth the cost since I get sample size from my dentist.

Semi off the wall: I have been using on an off for the last couple of years a bulk piece of AD 90gsm fabric and a SilPoly Poncho as my outerwear.  It has worked well to around 35F when active, and OK around camp at those temps while my body is still revved from hiking.  A description of the system (I should update) https://verber.com/poncho

Tooth powder user here. I don’t feel the need for dedicated sleep clothing or deodorant. These details are easy enough to iron out by trial and error. Just leave some things behind and see if you miss having them.

I collect the sample tubes of toothpaste from my dentist, use 3/4 at home and save the rest for trips.

In the summer octa is too hot for any use for me so I bring a lightweight running shirt made of nylon and it doubles as a sleep shirt and a base layer under the echo for “chilly” mornings

I use sample toothpaste tubes from dentist, and then refill from a regular tube between trips

Who says you can’t put toothpaste back in the tube :)

Hey, you crazy toothpaste refiller people. There is a “tool” for that!  Like refilling fuel canisters but no freezer or oven needed. https://www.amazon.com/Toothpaste-Transfer-Inexpensive-Bathroom-Accessories/dp/B0F1F32HDJ?th=1

You mean we haven’t all made our own toothpaste refillers from two old caps yet?

OK, here’s a proposal for a new gear list

I feel fairly settled on much of this, or at least I’m done researching for now. Key question is pack: Durston Kakwa 55 vs. Zpacks Arc Haul 50 or 60.

Thoughts welcome.

You may need to change the permission settings on your spreadsheet.

Regarding the pack, I would suspect that you will be happy with either of those if they fit you well. I have not handled a Durston pack, but people seem to love them, and obviously Durston is extremely thoughtful in his design and manufacturing. And while zpacks gets a lot of criticism on this forum, I have had fantastic first-hand experiences with their packs, tents, and sleeping bags, and they always offer great weight savings. I have an old DCF Arc Blast 55L that I have been using for years and years, it carries loads under 25 lb very well for me. Unfortunately, they don’t make that pack anymore, and I notice that both Zpacks and Durston are now avoiding DCF for packs and instead using materials that require coating for water resistance, which is unfortunate IMO. DCF seems to have developed a bad reputation for durability, but that has not been my experience.

Whoops, thanks Dan. Permissions revised.
I’ve poked around a bit and seen mostly positive words about Zpacks, but I don’t seem too skilled with the search function I guess :)
Just looking at it, the Durston looks more like a ‘real pack’ to me, in the sense that it is closer to the familiar shape of a climbing pack I could trust to ride well in the mountains and not to fall apart. But of course that’s just my eye being new to this game – I gather they are both made of great materials. And I’ll probably end up being a Durston fanboy given what I’ve read. But it’s heavier and sweatier?
Maybe I order them both? I don’t really want to spend money on a pack quiver at this point, my gear history notwithstanding…

I can attest that Klymit pad is not as well insulated it’s rating. I used one for years and liked it, but when I nabbed a used Nemo the difference was stark. You may not actually be a cold sleeper.

You don’t need anything special to transfer toothpaste; just put the ends together and squeeze.//I love my Feathered Friends Egret 20, and wouldn’t go without it unless I know it will be warm for sure.//Re deodorant, I usually go without, but always have a couple of packets of benzalkonium chloride in my 1st aid kit in case of encountering VIPs; it works well.//Cotton tshirt is too heavy; if you really want one for sleeping, find a really lightweight one, like the junk they sell at Old Navy. It won’t last as long, but it will weigh almost nothing. Then it will be a household rag you can use to buff your car.//2 person tent is a big no for me for longer trips. I don’t really want to be with anyone else’s foot stink and it doesn’t really save weight anyway. Just use 2 tents for 2 people.

Your overall weight looks good to me, with a few tweaks you can bring it down a bit.  Lighter food choices might also be a consideration.

Yeah!  Exactly!  No tool needed, just push the two ends again st each other.

Then, if you push on the narrow sides you can get the tube to expand a bit and it will suck the toothpaste into it.

My wife asks why would you want to transfer toothpaste from one tube to another.

Toothpaste: been trying tabs. nice in that I can take exactly the right amount but not sure it’s worth the cost since I get sample size from my dentist.

Mark Verber: Make your own toothpaste tabs. Small dollops of toothpaste on a piece of wax paper are easy to dehydrate.

Not sure how I missed this when the thread was new. Hopefully my late entry proves useful. Directionally, this thread has focused on lighter stuff, additionally much can be gain by simply taking less stuff. I learned the hard way on a CDT section hike through the Weminuche Wilderness. My pack for 10 days was 75 lbs!

Divide your gear into 2 piles: stuff you use and stuff you carry but don’t (or seldom) use. (a lot of my 1st aid kit, repair kit, emergency kit fell into this latter category). Of the stuff you use, do you use it because you need it, or use it because you have it. (extra clothing, rain pants, the “just in case” fleece during in summertime, drink cup are things I used because I had them, but in this exercise determined I didn’t really need them). And then of the stuff I didn’t use I evaluated each discrete item and dropped quite a few. Lastly can I take smaller quantities? For example: A couple of deet wipes vs. a small bottle, less hand sanitizer, less sunblock, less stove fuel, etc.

Depending where you start I suspect you’ll find a few pounds, I found 15. Then overtime I started replacing heavier items with lighter weight items (old 4 lb sleeping bag with 2 lb sleeping bag, ridgerest for thermarest, dcf tarp and bug bivy for tent, etc.). It was 7 years later I replaced my pack.

I’m not ultralight by any means, but my summer kit for weekend treks is <15 lbs before food, water, stove fuel. And kitted for a JMT thru-hike with an added umbrella I was <18 lbs.

In short, my first paradigm shift was take less stuff.