World's most comfortable, lightest, warmest, and adaptable CCF pad?

[Anonymous]

I and many (I might say most) people cannot sleep on any commercially available CCF pad by itself. Many of us, combine CCF with an air pad.  Air pads, tend to be expensive, and compared to CCF are unreliable and short lived.The great thing about air pads though, is the comfort and packability.

This is a CCF pad, designed to be comfortable enough to not require an air pad and with packability designed to not present much of an issue.

17 oz to 25 oz, is NOT heavy for an entire sleeping pad system, which includes a real pillow and a cover that can act as a bivy if need be, with serious insulation (unlike uninsulated air pads, some of which weigh around as much as the above). 

Most air pad plus CCF foam sleeping pad systems weigh more than the above.

Bulky, yes, hence why the cushion pieces will go in a silnylon stuff sack to be placed on the outside of the pack.  The main mat is thin and small enough to place in the pack if so desired. Since the cushion pieces in the silnylon stuff sack won’t weigh much, placing them on the outside of the pack, will not present any kind of issue, because there is not enough weight to have any kind of imbalancing effect.  You won’t notice that they are there unless you are a pea princess type and it’s psychological.

Large, continuous foam pieces are indeed expensive to ship.  Not so much for foam that can fit into a 1.5 ft x 1 ft x 1 ft box and that weigh around 1 to a l.5 lb.

I would only ever make and sell something that I would actually use myself–something that makes sense, that is logical, that solves problems and adds value.  As to cost to make and profit ratio, my price includes a 20 dollar an hour work payment. An actual livable wage, but not greedy nor egregious. I am NOT a corporation whose only focused on making as much profit as possible–that is antithetical to my entire being and core as a human being.  But as I make more and get more efficient and quick in the process, the price will come down some more (provided cost of materials stay the same).

A lot of my current and near future cost will be paying for shipping for large, continuous pieces (since I cannot use these inexpensive, puzzle mat pieces that I know of), but when I can afford to, I will buy bulk amounts for both a discount in material and shipping cost–already looked into it.

When you consider the long term longevity of CCF as compared to an air pad (with potential valve issues, potential delamination issues, potential punctures), 70 dollars (medium size) really isn’t “expensive”, when you factor in all the above points e.g. comfort, serious insulation, long term consistent reliability across all conditions, a real pillow, and an adjunct, emergency bivy.

Maybe you wouldn’t pay 70 dollars for a complete system that provides all that, simply because it’s mostly foam based, but I would in a heartbeat if somebody else was making and selling them (though, being a DIY’er type, I’d likely make it myself, and here I am potentially cutting into my profits by sharing all of my idea and the details of same…tsk tsk, a bad business person I am). I’m over expensive and shorter lived air pads at this point. Thing is, I already almost always use some sort of CCF already in conjunction with my air pads, for extra protection and insulation boost.

 

[Anonymous]

You want to talk about expensive, over priced stuff?  Gossamer Gear sells a simple rectangular EVA foam pad that is 39 x 59 x 1/4 in thick and weighs 9 to 13.2 oz  for 59 dollars normal price.  All they do, is buy bulk amounts of larger, continuous pieces, and spend about a literal few seconds (per product) cutting them into smaller pieces.

Sure, that is a great model for maximum profit for least amount of work and materials cost, but that is not something I personally could or would do.  But they sure do seem to sell a lot of those truly over priced, super simple, thinn’ish EVA foam pads.  

I’m charging, for a medium, about 10 dollars more for a well thought out and designed, holistic system that can be used alone, and that takes more than a few seconds to make.  For a small, it is literally a dollar more than their EVA foam pad that can only be used by most, in conjunction with an air pad.

 

[Anonymous]

And in similar corporate, marketing spirit, I’ve decided to change my prices to 59 dollars for a small, 69 dollars for a medium, and 79 dollars for a large.  ; )  ; )      Literally only a dollar less than before for each size, BUT now I’m trying to trick people on an unconscious level to think it’s less than it really is. (rolls eyes).

 

[Anonymous]

James, so when you contacted Gossamer Gear and informed them that their EVA foam pad was over priced and wouldn’t sell, what did they say?

 

[James Marco]

I don’t use Gossamer Gear to supply foam, that would be ridiculous.

“<span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: #ffffff; color: #000000; font-family: ‘Helvetica Neue’,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 1.74em; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”>Air pads, tend to be expensive, and compared to CCF are unreliable and short lived.The great thing about air pads though, is the comfort and packability.</span>”

Yes, a womens XLite is about 13oz and packs quite small. It has an Rvalue of around 3.9 and a 2.5 inch cushion margin. Air has an insulting vale of about R1 per inch. So, given that smaller thicknesses have something higher, I doubt it is much more than R0.3 per quarter inch. The 1/8″ foam is close at R 0.4-0.5. There is no Rvalue for mylar. It only reflects body IR at about 10% of your total body output. (Assuming you put out 70-80W of heat, maybe 7-8W gets returned to you.) 1/4″ foam is about R1.5 or so. So the total (assuming a full evazoyte center layer though only about 35% is removed) is only around an R2.5-2.7. This is not what I would want on snow compared with an XLite wR at R3.9. Your pad is less than a 40F pad at those numbers. The XLite wR is good to about 32F. Of course, if you have a big bag (say a 0F/-17C) you can sleep comfortably on snow with a single CCF pad. Comfort at 3/4″ is way down compared to an XLite wR, too. You cannot make foam warmer than it is, no matter how much complexity you add, because, it’s Rvalue is already higher than air and the cushioning suffers badly at the thin cross section. Only on forest duff is a CCF pad as comfortable as an air filled one. Hell, even 1/8″ works fine on duff.

“…<span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: #ffffff; color: #000000; font-family: ‘Helvetica Neue’,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”>placing them on the outside of the pack, will not present any kind of issue, </span>because there is not enough weight to have any kind of imbalancing effect.”

No, not imbalancing, Snags, are my problem. I keep everything in my pack. I NEVER add things to the outside…a big no-no. Even a Zlite snags carried outside.

“<span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: #ffffff; color: #000000; font-family: ‘Helvetica Neue’,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 1.74em; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”>When you consider the long term longevity of CCF as compared to an air pad (with potential valve issues, potential delamination issues, potential punctures), 70 dollars (medium size) really isn’t “expensive”, when you factor in all the above points e.g. </span>comfort, serious insulation, long term consistent reliability across all conditions, a real pillow, and an adjunct, emergency bivy.”

An Rvale or 2.5 compared to a R value of 3.9 means: $70/2.5= $28/R1.0. Do the same calculation  for an XLite wR @ 139 (new on sale at Therm-a-Rest this spring.) $139/3.9=$36/R1. This is for a warmer,  smaller pad that is about half the carry weight. Durability doesn’t seem to be a problem because Evazote lasts about the same amount of times as a neoair. I know, I use both around 50-60 nights per year. I don’t carry a pillow, reason is the extra weight. I don’t use a bivy, reason: extra weight. Though I have wrapped my core with a neoair and partially filled it for extra warmth under my rain gear while hiking. Again, similar to Klymits stuff. Yes, in an emergency the XLite serves as a bivy around my torso and butt. All unneeded extra gear to me.

Again, my 7-9oz pad and a 13oz XLite weigh less and has a higher comfort and a higher warmth that what you propose. It is partially dual purpose, so splitting the weight gives me about 17oz, with higher Rvalue, more comfort and only slightly higher cost, pennies per R value…

Anyway, I could go on, but clearly you will not be convinced you need a different approach.  I won’t argue with you. So, I am done…

 

[James Marco]

Actually, Glen complained that he was actually loosing money on the shipping for the NightLites. They no longer carry them.

[Anonymous]

“No, not imbalancing, Snags, are my problem. I keep everything in my pack. I NEVER add things to the outside…a big no-no. Even a Zlite snags carried outside.”

That’s the beauty of silnylon. Doesn’t snag easily, which is why Roger Caffin sings it’s praises as a poncho material which he has reported using in some truly nasty and snaggy conditions (and walking directly, forwardly into vs having something on the back of  pack).  He has said, the silnylon is great at sliding off such stuff with little friction and rarely getting snagged. Roger has been using such a system for a long time, and is a serious backpacker.  That’s good enough for me.

Bare foam, or most other things, not so much.  I’ve already put plenty of thought into all of this.

James, I was talking about the Thinlight pad (which though technically sold for “hammock” use, I doubt people ONLY buy it for same), which is only out of stock and not taken completely off:
https://www.gossamergear.com/collections/shelters-sleeping-pads/products/thinlight-hammock-pad

Having looked off and on at their site for some years now, it’s not uncommon to find their foam pads temporarily out of stock, especially after or during a sale, or high peak season like now.

Regardless, you are missing the forest for the trees at this point. 59 dollars for a super simple, not so thick, foam pad that takes literally seconds to “make”, is kind of heavy, and yet sells. And if using for a ground pad, many (or most) of us) would still need an adjunct air pad for comfort to use.

I will just say, thank you for the feedback if your intentions are from a helpful/positive space. However, it is very clear to me that you have not put as much holistic thought into this as I have.

[Anonymous]

More briefly,

“Again, my 7-9oz pad and a 13oz XLite weigh less and has a higher comfort and a higher warmth that what you propose.”

You do not know either the comfort, nor R value of this system.  You are assuming. I also don’t know the specific R value nor comfort of this system yet, which is why I am in the process of designing and testing currently. However, knowing what I know about materials, I know that 1/8″ EVA foam, combined with 3/4″ 2lb density EVA foam, will be comfortable enough for myself at least.

And again, this system is about the same or slightly less weight. But consider the cost.

How much did your 8 oz plus 13 oz XLite cost you total for both?  How long will your XLite last compared to an all CCF foam system?  Will the all CCF system ever have problems with air valves, delamination, punctures, temperature based pressure changes, etc?

Some of us are value conscious and/or have smaller budgets.

I’m seeing average regular price for Neoair XLite pad for 130 dollars. Then combine with say GG’s Thinlight foam pad of 59 dollars.  That’s almost 200 dollars, vs a 69 dollars for a system that will be light, warm, comfortable, and packable enough, BUT at the same time, always reliable and long lasting.

Hmm, much greater reliability and longevity at much lower cost…seems kind of a no brainer to me, honestly.

[Anonymous]

“Durability doesn’t seem to be a problem because Evazote lasts about the same amount of times as a neoair.”

Ummm….

Let’s pretend for a moment that this has something akin to factual truth to it. My pad system will have a lightweight silnylon or silpoly bottom protecting the bottom, and a UL woven fabric on top protecting the top of the thinner foam pad. Plus, the hook and looped 3/4″ foam pieces on top will also have a protective effect on the top of the thinner foam pad. Hence the combo would greatly extend it’s life (vs a single piece of 1/8″ high density EVA foam piece).

But the truth is, even with just a little care, and no protective cover, an EVA foam pad can last much longer than an air pad.  It does depend on thickness and density of course.

Also when only talking about comparing a single layer of foam to foam, both density and thickness will matter.  A 5.8lb density, 1/4″ pad will obviously last much longer than say a 1/8″ 2lb density pad and a bit longer than a 5.8lb but 1/8″ pad.

But in my proposed pad designs, it’s a systems approach, a sort of composite where the sum of the parts as a whole is greater than the singular parts by themselves.

I tell you this much, I would place large bets that a 1/8″ high density EVA main foam pad, combined with 3/4″ lower density foam, covered in a combo of UL WP and woven, breathable fabrics, is going to last significantly longer than any air pad on average. 

Now, I don’t think the aluminized mylar covering will last the life of the product, even with the fabric covering and some silicone dots as I plan to place on same, but I when I go to sell it, I will openly disclose that it likely won’t last the life of the product and that specific care and handling will greatly affect it’s life.

I will be looking into other potential materials for that part, to see if there is anything reasonably light but more durable. It’s not entirely integral to the system.  Even without the IR reflecting, it will be a warm pad for the weight.

 

[Anonymous]

As to warmth and R value.  Again, this is not a simple, linear system.

EVA foam has an R value of about 3.6 per inch. Most of the body, especially the core will be on top of a combination of about 1/8″ + 3/4″ EVA foam.

As I’ve said previously a few times, this system will work best with sleeping bags, because there will be gaps that will allow some of the bag’s insulation to stay lofted.  The pad’s fabric cover will also help slightly as far as convective heat loss.

Then there is IR reflection.

Taken as a whole, I think that it would be plenty warm enough for the temps that most people here go out in.

When winter comes around, and hopefully we get some polar vortex’s down here, I will test at more unusual/extreme cold temps, that the majority of folks here do not go out into and see how it does.

When it gets down to near or slightly below 0* F temps for the lows, I combine a lightweight sleeping bag with a thicker quilt, as I’ve found that maximizes comfort at least weight for me at those kinds of temps.

 

[Roger Caffin]

@Justin

That’s the beauty of silnylon. Doesn’t snag easily, which is why Roger Caffin sings it’s praises as a poncho material which he has reported using in some truly nasty and snaggy conditions

I do sing its praises, but my comments only apply when everything, including the poncho, are WET. After all, I don’t use a poncho in the dry. I suspect it is the wet scrub rather than the wet silnylon which helps with the sliding.

Dry silnylon – maybe not so prone to sliding. I have not tested that.

As for the sales bit – you probably have NO idea yet just how much time is taken up in dealing with the selling process. I have been selling stoves (and am still selling all sorts of left-overs), and dealing with each order takes ages. It has been an education for me.

Cheers

[Anonymous]

Those are good points Roger.  As to the first, water will definitely help lubricate it, so to speak.  But then again, unlike a poncho, we are talking about something on the back of a pack, which realistically isn’t going to experience a lot of contact with snaggy type stuff to begin with. A simple, stretched out elastic cord over it, would help to keep it snug against the pack.

As to the 2nd, yeah, I could see that.  Probably depends on how one has it set up and various other factors.

But a stove is a significantly more complicated item–potentially much more user error involved, I can imagine some not so bright folks perhaps getting confused or doing something wrong with it and then complaining or having lot’s of questions.  Or what if some little internal part fails, or the like.

Personally, I would not want to sell stoves that hook up to canisters. But the simpler and more fool proof the item, wouldn’t that tend to make it more efficient of a process all in all?  What you see is what you get and all that. What is more simple and fool proof than a sleeping pad with no valve and if it get’s slightly punctured by something–no big deal?

I’ve thought about contacting REI once the design has been fully worked out and tested. It would be great PR for them, to sell a local, American made, small business type product. But then again, I don’t want to be beholden to anybody else, and a big part of me thinks that it would be wise to do a make and sell one or two a day type plan (and only advertising what I actually have on hand or could quickly make), so that I won’t get behind and fall into some of the issues/problems that some cottage makers have fallen into.

I have two part time jobs that I mostly enjoy/are rewarding, I’m not looking to only do gear making/selling to cover all my finances–just some extra on the side.  Relying solely on the former can easily become a swim or sink scenario that I’m just not interested in.

Now, my battery design, once all the testing is done and kinks worked out (going to take a awhile)…that could really become a full time commitment.

Thank you for the feedback.

[Anonymous]

I was re-reading this thread and saw that I told Roger that I would put up a pic of my spouse’s Neo Air All Season pad, and what appears to be mold growing within the pad’s substrate material. I have tried scrubbing it off with warm, soapy water, as well as rubbing alcohol, and so far, no go.  Anyways, I forgot about it, but here it is now.

[Geoff Caplan]

“Durability doesn’t seem to be a problem because Evazote lasts about the same amount of times as a neoair.”

I can’t speak for other EVAs, but proper branded Evazote will last almost indefinitely when used as a sleep-mat.

The original Evazote Karrimat came out in 1968. I knew an outfitter who had some prototypes and managed to snag one. It was white, irregularly shaped and pock-marked. But it was a huge step forward in comfort.

I still have it today, and it’s pretty much as good as new. I use it as a loaner, and it’s survived many hundreds of nights of usage.

https://www.outdoorgearcoach.co.uk/blog/karrimat-the-sleeping-mat-story/

[Anonymous]

+1 X 1000.

Would just add, besides quality, that of course density and thickness of the EVA foam matters in exactly how long it will last.

The lower the density, the less durability/longevity, and the thinner the material, similar.

An example:  a 1/8″ low density, say 2lb, density foam pad, by itself, may not out live an air pad on average.

But a 1/4th or thicker, higher density, high quality EVA foam pad is likely to outlive any air pad.  From what I’ve seen so far, EVA foam most often ranges between 2lb to 5.8lb density’s.

But that is speaking of single pieces of material. When a more complex, varied systems approach like mine, gets involved, then it becomes more relative. A thin, about 1/8″ high density base EVA foam pad, would end up being more durable and longer lived, than if on it’s own as a singular piece.

[James Marco]

Well, one last comment, here. The Zote foams I have used are still usable after many years. However, at full thickness, they are NOT. My original Nightlite pad purchased in 2006, was at a 2.75″ thickness, folded together. Today it is about 1.825″, or, not quite an inch of total thickness loss. I make them every few years (3-5) for this reason. Heat, temperature and moisture will effect the thickness and they do indeed loose thickness. GG notes that they loose thickness over time in their sales pitch. And from Zotefoams.com this:

Post processing small dimensional variances can occur and care should be taken to assess this in regard to the correct processing blank and final geometric sizes or thickness requirements of your particular application. Dimensional validation after one hour, twenty four hours or after one week for instance will assist you in determining any effects along with suitable testing in application confirming the suitability of ZOTEK N to meet full customer requirements.

Regardless of the thickness loss, they are still usable, bit not usually at the original spec.

[Anonymous]

James, if I’m not mistaken, the pad you are referring to, the NightLight foam pad is an egg crate/convoluted style pad, correct?

If so, do you think such a design, with it’s much lower surface area and volume in direct contact with a heavy body, is going to hold up as well as a pad that has a much higher surface area and volume of material in direct contact with a heavy body?

I think it’s pretty self evident that the more surface area and volume in direct contact with a body and the more the load is distributed, the less the foam will tend to become permanently compressed.

I think my issue will be more that of using 2lb density foam pieces for the cushion pieces. These indeed will compress faster than equivalent thickness foam of say, high, 5.8lb density.  How fast though, is the question.

I might, for the sake of customer satisfaction, offer free replacement of the cushion pieces after a 5 yr period if they have compressed noticeably by that time (say like a 1/6 of an inch).  I strongly suspect though, that only the upper torso and lower back/hip/butt areas will ever need replacing.  The leg/feet, I doubt would experience noticeable, permanent compression.

Thank you for the feedback

[Anonymous]

This is what GG says exactly on their site, and I think the larger context needs to be considered:

Speaking about the NightLight pad,”We have the foam cut into an “egg crate” pattern for comfort. The base is 1/4″, and the convoluted portion rises a maximum of an additional 1/2″ above the base, for a total pad thickness of 3/4″ maximum. Since the foam protrusions are solid foam instead of formed, they ‘bounce back’ pretty well, though they will compress with time and use.*”

*Justin W.’s use of bold and italics

What seems to be implied is that because this is a structure that includes lower surface area/volume “protrusions” taking the brunt of the compressive forces, because of that there will be some noticeable compression with time and use.

But would the same (meaning to similar degree) apply to a pad with much more surface area and volume in direct contact with a heavy body?  Do they mention this in relation to their flat pads?  I don’t remember seeing similar cautions on those products.

 

[Anonymous]

I noticed a bit of a glaring contradiction.

Earlier I said to you James after you told me that this pad system was too expensive, wouldn’t sell, etc, :
“James, so when you contacted Gossamer Gear and informed them that their EVA foam pad was over priced and wouldn’t sell, what did they say?”

You replied back, “I don’t use Gossamer Gear to supply foam, that would be ridiculous.”

That made it sound like you wouldn’t buy foam from them, but from a more wholesale supplier, to save money, or the like. (And possibly implied is that you recognize that is over priced for what you are getting).

But you just mentioned buying one of their foam pads. More specifically you said, “My original Nightlite pad purchased in 2006, was at a 2.75″ thickness, folded together.”

Normally I don’t make such contradictions an issue with folks, as I tend towards a live and let live approach most often, but you’ve been somewhat persistently peeing on my newborn of late, and the more suspicious part of me has wondered if there might be more than mere constructive criticism/helpfulness involved in the motivations/intentions behind same.

I don’t tend to miss much (lol, except for briefly referring to Geoff as George–mainly because that spelling of Geoff is rather uncommon/foreign to me.  My best friend for a decade or so, was a Jeff).

 

 

[James Marco]

Well, just to address your interpretation of things with the insulation aspect, the thickness (comfort), and weight issues I have with your design, my original two pads were purchased from GG in an effort to lighten my pack comfortably, warmly, with minimum weight and volume in 2006 (maybe 2007,) or, 12-13 years ago. In general just the one pad was actually used by me for about 3-4 years. The others were given away along with various shelters, packs, stoves and other not so good stuff. I wrote up an article about it about that time. I think the original pad, now in pieces, is still in my gear room as a loaner. The compression means loss of insulating value, loss of comfort, with no loss of weight (though some volume reduction is noted.) I replace them as needed using various retail sources (ie the cheapest possible.)

You are simply trying to distract everyone from the content. I was offering some viewpoints into physics, design, metrics, production, optimization, packability and marketing. Forgive me for seemingly “peeing” on your idea…not my intent and I’m sorry you feel this way, I was hoping you could prove me wrong and make a lighter, warmer, and smaller pad, not respond with a personal, written attack on me having “contradictions” as you did…

A private note was sent me about this, that is the ONLY reason I am posting here. Informal writing is not as precise as is needed for a scientific paper, nor, as structured. I should have written better, more explanatory sentences, and given a more complete background of my experience with foam, my sources and my use for backpacking while commenting. I am sorry you didn’t didn’t understand, my fault for poor writing. And, I am sorry it was not helpful in any way.

[Craig B]

This has been an entertaining thread to follow! ;-)

Justin, I think you may find that you are putting the cart before the horse here.  There’s a long road from having an idea to producing a finished product.  No matter how good the idea, you still have to go through at least a couple of rounds of prototyping before you get close to a polished production version.  It’s not unreasonable to think of testing one iteration of the design over several trips to get an idea of how it performs before deciding it satisfies your design intentions/criteria.  It’s very difficult to shortcut the product development process.  Debating the merits of something that doesn’t exist yet, or comparing same to something that does is an academic exercise;  in the end it doesn’t really accomplish anything.

But it seems like you have plenty of motivation and drive, so build the thing for yourself and see if it meets your expectations! (The first iteration of my new designs rarely do ;-).  Then once you have a good baseline of use verses other popular systems, you can see if anyone else is interested in parting with their hard earned cash for it.  Now go have some fun in the workshop!  I’m curious to see how it progresses….

[Anonymous]

James, for good reasons, I don’t tend to be too trusting of people. A couple times previously, I thanked you for your feedback, and meant it sincerely and wasn’t just being polite.

I will just leave it at that, as I don’t want to get into an overly personal interaction. I wouldn’t take my somewhat suspicious nature personally–I approach most people I haven’t met in person in that kind of way, especially so when odd or unusual patterns arise.

[Anonymous]

“This has been an entertaining thread to follow! ;-) “

I’m glad my eccentricity and unusually direct manner has been amusing for you. Taking a longer, broader look at history, it’s hard to not notice a consistent pattern emerging of it most often being the unusual, eccentric, creative, socially fearless, imaginary, and/or visionary types being the ones to pioneer new and better understandings, tech, and/or processes.

And all along the way, they are often laughed at, ridiculed, minimized, to even outright mistreated by the majority of more conventional, safety and certainty loving types around them who are far more common (fear tends to do not so funny, funny things to people…). Humans being fairly herd like animals, they don’t tend to like “too different” than the usual. Besides the unknown, there is nothing more truly disturbing, whether consciously or unconsciously, to the average human psyche than another human who is truly different than themselves and the majority. Yea, I am mindful and a student of history and human nature.

(Lol and no wonder why from age 4 to 5, self kept having the same repeating dream of being on a spaceship, traveling from somewhere very far away and different, to Earth. More than kind of foreshadowed and set the tone for much that has followed).

While I’ve seen some nice projects in MYOG over the years, I’ve seen very little in the way of true innovation, original thinking, inventing, pioneering or the like.  Just within the last month, I’ve injected more original thinking and innovation into MYOG than has been seen here total in years, and especially in recent years.

“Justin, I think you may find that you are putting the cart before the horse here.”  

Perhaps some. My usual problem is not so much non pragmatic/workable ideas, but running out of money, or not having enough time or energy.

It’s not like I’m soliciting or taking orders for this pad system–just thinking out loud and documenting the creative process in an open source way.  Now, I could be another dime a dozen millennial or near millennial on Kickstarter, Indiegogo, etc trying to get other people to fund my creative process and business plan, but that is not my way, and I’m open source sharing it all.

If I was a better “businessman”, I would just keep the details to myself and come out with a finished product, and say “buy my stuff, cause yeah, it’s better. (end explanation)”.  But, to speak to business and marketing for a moment, it is not uncommon for ventures and companies to start advertising a product well before it’s ready to be released, to build up interest ahead of time. And I already mentioned Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and these are pretty much completely based on that kind of model.

“There’s a long road from having an idea to producing a finished product. No matter how good the idea, you still have to go through at least a couple of rounds of prototyping before you get close to a polished production version.”

Sure, and there’s already been a couple major changes/tweaks to the design. Don’t doubt there will be some more at least minor ones. Have already contemplated “crazy” ideas of going with 1″ thick 2lb density cushioning , so to have enough compressive leeway in order to avoid backups like the 5 year warranty type solutions.

 ” It’s not unreasonable to think of testing one iteration of the design over several trips to get an idea of how it performs before deciding it satisfies your design intentions/criteria.  It’s very difficult to shortcut the product development process.” 

Oh, I definitely plan on testing it before selling.  I wouldn’t sell something that wasn’t tested and didn’t work well. My personal sense of ethics and integrity and my degree of honesty is unusually developed. Even when very young, I was that odd child that adults referred to as an “old Soul”, or my much older cousin who use to babysit me, referred to me as “old man”, because I was wise, mature, and perceptive beyond my years.  And when very young, was empathy personified/overloaded, see the following for a better understanding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg43X3A3sZI

  “Debating the merits of something that doesn’t exist yet, or comparing same to something that does is an academic exercise;  in the end it doesn’t really accomplish anything.”   

I will give you this, I am spending far too much time and energy in debating others. Should just focus on creating and testing.  This is the first time in 5 years, where I have not worked a full time and part time job concurrently, and I should maximize this newfound time and energy rather than get into I-net debates. (Unfortunately though, there is a part of my ego side that kind of likes debates).

“But it seems like you have plenty of motivation and drive, so build the thing for yourself and see if it meets your expectations!” 

That’s the plan Stan.

“(The first iteration of my new designs rarely do ;-).”  

Sure, can very much relate, especially the further back I go. However, the longer I do this MYOG and creative imagination/visualization and then making stuff, and of late the more I meditate, intermittent fast, and attune self in various ways, the easier, more natural, and more fully realized the creative process has been becoming. Very recently, it’s almost like I download a concept in it’s entirety fully formed in my mind’s eye. And sometimes these just come out of the seeming blue.

“Then once you have a good baseline of use verses other popular systems, you can see if anyone else is interested in parting with their hard earned cash for it.”

The core concept is more than sound and based in logic–this is not like building a spaceship or a fusion reactor, it’s a modified foam pad fer Cheese and Crackers (smile), but yes, it may need some tweaking here and there. The more simple and less complex a design, the less difficult it is to get a good finished product.  And some say, simplicity is the true heart of genius.

     “Now go have some fun in the workshop!  I’m curious to see how it progresses….”

Thank you for the encouragement Craig, definitely plan on it. In the past, I have started MYOG threads and not followed up on them…. ; )

Most commonly, it’s been due to lack of shown interest. If a project thread only gets a couple, or no replies/showing of interest within a month or two of starting same, why would I waste my time and energy going more depth into it? I have finished projects and not updated, because of that.  I may be an introvert and not actually need much attention or feedback from others, but neither do I see the point in wasting my time/energy when there is little to no expressed interest shown.

Then, also somewhat common is running out of funds for non essentials. Then time and energy. At one point, not that long ago, I was working 60+ hrs a week between two jobs. Doesn’t leave much time or energy for much else and I’m not a spring chicken anymore as I’m quite close to 40’s.

 

[Roger Caffin]

I’m not a spring chicken anymore as I’m quite close to 40’s.
Chuckle.
Yes, you are still a spring chicken. Says those of us over the age of 70.

Cheers

[Anonymous]

Well, yes, tis relative in the bigger picture and standing next to dinos, but meant more so, that I don’t have the energy I had when in my 20’s.  And the white hairs are starting to appear.

[Author]

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