Winter Sleep System Questions

Ryan Jordan wrote two articles here at BPL last year about winter camping. They are excellent reading.

I personally do not use my quilt when the weather drops below 30 dgrees because I toss and turn and the drafts get to me.

You say nothing about what kind of pad you are going to use.  I like to use an NeoAir Xtherm inflatable in combination with a closed cell foam pad.

Do you live in a house with a backyard? Set up your prospective system in your backyard on the coldest night forecast in the next few weeks and test it out.

Many people decide they do not like to camp in winter so I would advise against spending a lot of $ before you decide you like it.

NOTE: You could use your summer bag inside or over (like a quilt ) the 0 degree bag if it is not warm enough.

Finally your local chapter of the regional mountain club probably runs a winter camping clinic with an outing for newbies. You get trained and pick up tips about winter camping and camp with a group.  Cooking in winter is a lot of fun since you don’t have to travel so far to find a remote place and you can bring fresh food.

https://support.enlightenedequipment.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002770588-How-to-layer-quilts-for-sub-zero-camping

With overnighters in extreme cold, moisture isn’t going to be a big issue to deal with, but for multiple days, it can be a pain. By going to a synthetic over bag you keep the frozen moisture out of the down quilt. It also makes it easier to dry out or melt your bedding if it can be split into sections. Having one big sleeping bag takes longer to service in every way out in the field for moisture and ice.

Having a single bag for 0* is far more convenient for overnighters. Most people are probably not going that route more because of cost than anything. I personally hate trying to keep down bags going on longer trips though. A few moist nights can really tax the warmth of the down and never recover without lots of heat.

I’m personally using a Katabatic Flex 22 quilt with a variety of MYOG Apex quilts for winter. Apex insulation is pretty close to invincible in cold weather. Only thing that can take it down is basically being dunked in water and frozen into a solid brick. No amount of moisture from my body condensing to Apex has degraded the warmth much at all.

Layering with synthetic to the outside is a very effective cold weather setup, but if both layers are drafty quilts I’ll be sleeping better with a single mummy bag.

My setup is a mummy with 25 ounces of 900 fill plus an Alpha Direct overbag with a wp/b ripstop shell. Inside a tent this is good to neg ten or so.

In other words, keep the Parsec, and build on that if needed down the road.

I do a lot of winter camping in the Adirondacks which has some similarities to your area. My winter bag is the WM Badger you mentioned. It’s large enough that I can wear some of my puffy clothes when I’m in it and if needed I can layer a quilt over if but that is typically not necessary even well below the 15F rating of the bag when I am wearing my puffy clothes. What Ryan discussed about layering the quilt for is for protecting your down bag on multiday trips where you will be stuffing your sleeping bag into a pack in the morning. For overnighters or trips where you stay in one place it is not as critical but I do use a MLD synthetic quilt for that purpose on multiday trips.

This post on Reddit has a lot of great info from someone who is thru-hiking the CDT in the snow! About as good of a test for gear I could ever imagine. They praise the Nunatak overbag system.

Report: Upgrading thru hiking gear for winter conditions at high altitude on the CDT from Ultralight

Trust Nunatak – keep the new bag and add something synthetic later if need be.

If you didn’t have that new bag and were looking to add something to your 20F quilt, a synthetic overbag could be an option but like you said, it’s more bulk, it’s one more thing, you’re out for one night, and you’re in a double wall tent.

Parsec sounds cozy!

I also trek often in the White Mountains in winter, typically hovering around 0F, give or take 10F on either side. My ground system is based on a 40F oversized EE Revelation quilt and a 15-20F sleeping bag. On the hammock or bivy, I switch the sleeping bag for a 20F closed footbox quilt. All down. The 40F quilt goes over the warmer bag/quilt fully open to avoid compression.

I have used this system for about a decade. Why no 0F bag? As you say, it would be lighter and simpler. But the cost of quality 0F bags can be hard to swallow for a handful of nights a year. Then there is the issue of storing such a bag uncompressed. And lastly, there is the environmental impact of having a third item instead of two. The 15-20F bag/quilt is too warm for me in the summer, so I need a 40F quilt. But the latter it’s too cold for most fall/spring nights. The combo has no problem dealing with full New England winter. Yes, two is more complicated to deal with than one and a bit heavier, but it’s not that much harder and you only need to open the bags/quilts a few times each day. For me the pros outweigh the cons.

Regarding layering quilts and dealing with multiple straps, EE has double straps. Not sure whether you can make your own or buy something that will work with your quilts.

https://enlightenedequipment.com/sub-zero-strap-quilt-layering-strap/

https://enlightenedequipment.com/quilt-layering-adapter/

Would I change anything about my setup? For one or two nights, having the top bag be down is okay, but it does trap a bit of moisture. Perhaps a synthetic/alpha overbag would accumulate less moisture. But again, on short overnights, not a major concern. And I get a lighter, more durable summer bag.

So if money is tight, I would sell/return/not buy the 0F regardless of how great a deal it is. And also sell the Kodiak, although perhaps, if you can financially, wait until you have enough experience with a satisfactory winter setup. I still don’t want to store that bag the other 9-10 months of the year for which it would be too warm.

How much experience do you have with the UGQ 20F quilt at its temperature limit? Are you comfortable deploying it at that temperature without worries? As some people mentioned above, quilts below freezing can make it hard to deal with drafts for those of us who toss and turn. I do not take a quilt to freezing or below in a tent. However, I prefer quilts in the hammock, since there is no tossing and turning. And I also use quilts with bivies, since they eliminate drafts.

So if you haven’t tested the quilt’s limits yet, my recommendation is to wait on selling the Badger until you decide you are a below freezing quilter.

Now, all my comments are based on the fact that I find EN ratings are accurate for me. One of my regular backpacking partners sleeps much, much colder than I do by about 20F degrees. So when I am in a 40F bag, he will be in a 20F bag.

Thank you for the input. So I’m thinking I may return the Parsec and save a ton of money and keep my WM Badger 15 which I like quite a bit and might be warm enough anyways. So then what your saying is I could get a 40 degree synthetic quilt to throw on top If I need to, use it like a blanket??

As far as pads I have a STS Etherlight Insulated but might get that new Xtherm Max pad.

So you can attest to the WM Badger being up to the task for most winter overnights at least when temps hover above zero? I love this bag but I was trying to convince myself I needed a true zero degree bag even though the WM bags are superior to everything else. So if I wanted to supplement it would you recommend like a 40 degree synthetic quilt and just throw it over me like a blanket? Should I then get a quilt that zips fully open?

Thank you, I will definitely give this a read..

That’s some great info. I appreciate it,  thank you…

I have used my 20 degree UGQ top quilt into the upper 20’s and 30’s and it performed well. I did wear a fleece and light base layers. I have also ysed the WM Badger in similar conditions and it performed flawlessly.

If I return the Parsec, I’m thinking a 40 Degree top quilt fully opened and used as a blanket would be more than enough in the winter..

Regarding trading in the STS Etherlight for the Xtherm, I would say hold off. I have slept on the older style valve Xlite down to -10F using a 1/2″ foam to supplement the Xlite. (same R value as the Etherlight, I believe). I am not familiar with the Etherlight or the STS pads, so take that as you may. But if you notice that camping you are cold from below and toasty on top, then the pad is the issue.

Regarding the Badger, I also have no experience with WM bags. But trustworthy individuals say they are the gold standard. My understanding is that their ratings are true and perhaps even a bit warmer than EN. So my comment is based on their perception. Again, ultimately what matters is how the bag works for you at 15F. Is the girth too narrow or wide? You mentioned upper 20s usage so far. So if it was warm then, perhaps try taking it a bit lower. If you are a bit cold at 10F, no problem, put in your puffy and other warm clothes. Or throw something on top to supplement. A quilt sounds great, but a $20 down blanket from Costco or other similar retailer will also work.

No substitute for first hand experience I am afraid. As I was mentioning on my earlier post, my friend Tenzin needs a 20F EN bag when I’m comfortable in an EN rated 40F. He layers a 0F EE quilt and a 0F or -20F sleeping bag in winter when I’m in my bags. I think he is an extreme case. But again, he needs what he needs and knows it after having a couple of chilly nights…

Also, bring along a thermometer to see actual field readings. Forecasts are not accurate. At those temps, battery operated may not be the best choice.

Nunatak

My setup is a mummy with 25 ounces of 900 fill plus an Alpha Direct overbag with a wp/b ripstop shell.

how much warmer is this over bag and which AD do you use??

thanks thom

I agree, I’m actually going to still use my Etherlight XT but supplement it with a Nemo Switchback Closed cell pad..

Do you think this Alpha overbag will be enough combined over my WM Badger 15 degree bag? The WM bag is roomier and more comfortable. Does it have to be this specific overbag? Can it be a wide 40 degree synthetic quilt? Should the quilt or “ overbag” have a closed footbox or zip footbox so it can be used like a blanket?

The Parsec 0 and WM Badger 15 are going to be comparably warm. The Parsec is comfort rated to 14 and the WM is conservatively rated to 15. Their dimensions and fill power are not apples to apples but they will likely be neck and neck warmth wise so pick which one you like best.

The Alpha overbag will not add much warmth, just a couple degrees but either bag will work for most winter conditions and sleeping in some puffy clothes will stretch it well past 0 in my experience.

I hear you on the similarities of the two bags. I would definitely be wearing 250 wt Smartwool baselayers as well as down booties, fleece or down beanie, and a fleece or puffy to boost the warmth. I was considering a 40 degree synthetic quilt anyways for summer , would it be a good idea to layer this over the WM Badger?

Kind of late, so I just glanced through this thread.    I have used an STS Ether Light.  The summer version, not the Extreme. The Extreme is simply too heavy and bulky for me to consider.  The non-Extreme version  is inappropriate for winter use.  It is essentially a bag of air.  Convective circulation within the bag will produce heat loss at the 4″ tall perimeter sides and any portion of the pad that is not covered by a sleeping bag.  Further, the vertical structural members have fairly high thermal conductivity and act as thermal bridges to divert heat directly to the bottom of the sleeping pad.  There is sufficient heat loss in this system so any pad you put beneath will be ineffective.  I know all this because I used it in very cold temperatures and was, partly due to this pad, also cold.  Of course, then I did lab testing to evaluate its performance.

I also have doubts about using an Alpha Direct over quilt.  It simply has insufficient thermal resistance to reliably move the dew point very far, if at all.  I have not done the calculations yet to demonstrate this.  It may work in some situations, but I would not count on it. Alpha Direct is a great product, but not great for every application.  The top quilt role probably calls for the thermal efficiency of high loft insulation–down or synthetic.  I use a 40 degree synthetic quilt over my WM Antelope.

Thank you for your advice! My bad, I mistakenly thought the XT had a higher R value. I love that pad and I have to say it’s worked fine paired with my quilt into upper 20’s to 30’s but I definitely will look into a true winter pad. I agree that the Extreme is just way too big and heavy. I will probably wait for the new Xtherm Max I believe it is called to come out in January or go with the Tensor Alpine.

As far as the quilt, I was thinking about getting a 40 degree synthetic quilt anyways so I’m gonna go that route as you mentioned. I’d use it with my WM Badger or the Parsec if I keep that as well. Do you suggest a seen footbox? Wide so that it weaps around the bag? Do you need to use pad straps or can you just drape it over so it doesn’t compress the down?

Any other specific things I need to consider with the quilt and pairing it with a bag?

Thanks