windshirt inside or outside of down puffy?

Eric,

the windshirt is an Arc’terys Anabatic. I tried three sizes and did all those moves. I took the one that fitted the best (and that was also the smallest that actually did fit). At that time, it was a foreign trip, I was wearing a suit and had nor a fleece not a puffy with me.

The lightest puffy I have and that I’m wearing for 3-season use, is an older Montbell Thermawrap UL which I was only able to get online so I had to guess the size. It fits actually pretty good. Bigger and it would be floppy; smaller and it wouldn’t fit at all.

Putting the Anabatic over the Thermawrap UL is possible, but also restricting. Not that that really matters for me, because I hardly ever needed to do that in all those years (and when I did, it was out of laziness). :-)

you know you have a perfect fir when you can layer everything together in many ways and still chase after folks like a madman

this does not mean an absolutely form fitting or snuggest fit …

but at least in the case of windshirts and poofayz a “flexible” fit … for example i can layer my exl, atom and marmot windshirt in any combination …

the real advantage of a windshirt is its flexibility …. over, under, in between layers … give that up and its basically an “action suit” softshell without the stretch

fit is something that one knows instantly  …. it either fits or it doesnt … should be true luuuuv at first fitting

;)

Don’t take a windshirt. Use your shell over your down jacket in camp. Done.

Oh and use your shell as a windshirt if you must. I hike in a sunscreen shirt with a tight weave; that works well as a windshirt too.

(I understand that there are some situations where a windshirt is nice–climbing, for example.)

Well, at least for me, I don’t need that ‘windshirt over puffy’-layering. Perhaps others do but I never been in a situation where I thought: “if only I could layer my windshirt over my puffy now, that would be a (huge) difference.”. My windshirt fits over baselayers and light fleeces and, in fact, that’s all I ever needed. :-)

i wouldnt use my EXL even in camp without a shell over it … not in the PNW where theres a branch everywhere to catch and rip it …

jeffrey …

while some folks do use windshirts for climbing … a softshell is more common as its more abrasion resistant

also if one uses their rain jacket as a windshirt … the DWR wears off in quick order

;)

also if one uses their rain jacket as a windshirt … the DWR wears off in quick order

from uv light? or just wear and tear.

Anyway, I know my leave-windshirt-at-home position isn’t popular. In Colorado, in the desert, I can see its application. In the Sierra, I’m happy without it. (i was going to add the PNW but then, I would always have a rainshell there, ergo…despite the dwr concern.

wear and tear … and dirt … in the PNW yr always grabbing roots, shrubs, rocks when scrambling up and down … and mud and dirt about

for shorter endeavors ones WPB DWR should be kept in good condition … or youll end up with a non breathable rain jacket when (not if) it rains

course half the time i dont wear a windshirt anyways, just a light fleece

as a note if one wants to keep their down jacket relatively “dry” even in damp conditions, simply put yr fleece or synth over it … of course one can only do this with thin down sweaters like the EXL

;)

Jeffrey,

a question: if that shirt can act as some sort of windlayer and you wear it all the time, doesn’t mean you also have those windblocking properties (and thus lower air-permeability) when you don’t want it ?

Your asking if the shirt is hot. Yes. It’s hotter than the capilene base I used to wear. But not terribly hot. I usually hike at altitude. Most often heat is not an issue–sometimes, yes. In any case, I want a sun shirt. I’m happy with this and haven’t looked back towards capilene or anything else. there are cooler sun shirts on the market. Mine does have a strip of mesh under each arm,which helps.

and it has buttons–that you can unbutton. Oh, I almost forgot: mosquitoes can’t bite through it. Capilene, they bite right through.

I happen to hike at altitude also and as I have a pale skin and burn very easily (past summer, I even burned in the shade), I certainly need some protection against the sun. Even at altitude, it can be hot (as you said). Capilene Silkweight (or 1 or Daily) is ok for that but I wouldn’t call it great (yes, Capilene Lightweight/2 is cooler but doesn’t protect enough against the sun). If that shirt is already hotter (and probably also less breathable), it won’t work for me probably.

“Eric,

“the windshirt is an Arc’terys Anabatic. I tried three sizes and did all those moves.”

Pics or it didn’t happen. I want video of you windmilling and screaming DEAD BIRD SO GUUD!

:)

I did the moves, I didn’t wrote I yelled that (perhaps good I didn’t as they perhaps would have locked me up in a pschyatric institution). :-)

I have some over sized windjackets for the express purpose of putting over my puffy’s during winter/colder weather trips.  I do it to boost insulation (most of my puffy’s are sewn through) and to protect the fabric of the puffy from rips/tears, abrasion, etc.

Sure, they are baggy when not worn over insulation, but it seems to add to the air permeability, which in most situations is a good thing.  I also have more fitted windjackets for trips that aren’t that cold.

I rarely ever hike in my puffy’s (and if i do, it’s for a couple of minutes until i’m warmed up and before i start sweating heavily).  I do have some and very breathable, front only Apex insulated vests for very cold conditions that i sometimes use instead of fleece (because it packs much smaller and is much lighter).

Inside for vapor barrier effect or just quick and dirty; outside for light precip, assuming it won’t

No windshirt unless it is too cold and I’m wearing everything. I would have my rain shell on the outside too in that case.

Let’s not be disingenuous with “wind shirt.” Our nigh industry standard, the Patagonia Houdini, is a wind jacket. In fact, the only major hiking-oriented product that I can think of whose manufacturer calls it a shirt is the Marmot DriCLime. When we over-use the word “windshirt” it’s a colloquialism, and because we’re lazy and it’s one less syllable.

I didn’t suggest that a wind shirt should go under a down vest because it’s a “shirt” – call it what you like, in the sort of weather in which I’d only need that and a down vest I’d always wear it under the insulation.

Yeah, well, that was directed at Richard. It’s not all about you. :)

Yeah, well, that was directed at Richard. It’s not all about you. :)

What do you mean that it’s not all about me???

And the Easter Bunny isn’t real, either.

Mwa ha ha!

This has been one of the most useful threads explaining the windshirt concept for backpacking. I bought a wind shirt last year and had a hard time figuring out the proper way of using it. As said above its a shirt! I originally looked at it as a jacket and wearing it like a shell but found it most useful used like a shirt. It is a VB to protect your techy gear from sweat and oils from you body. I usually wear a T-shirt and would sweat into my down making it feel yucky and making it useless. Also oils from your skin are very bad for membranes in rain shells and for down, not to mention uncomfortable next to bare skin. A wind shirt fixed these problems and replaced other clothing making a lighter kit. I wear my wind shirt over my base layer. For my 3 season kit it would be a T-shirt or cap 4 then wind shirt on top. In camp if cold I will wear a thin puffy and even my rainshell over top. When it’s really cold I will add a 100 weight fleece under the windshirt.

For me, a wind shell is just another layer, though a very lightweight one for what it provides.  Current one is a 1.6oz Montbell Tachyon jacket.  Previous one was a 2.2oz Helly Hanson Mars jacket.  Due to it’s low weight, I never have an excuse to leave it at home.  And for me, it’s my main goto layer that I grab first when I need some warmth.  When I stop for a short break on a cool day, I put it on.  When the evening starts to cool off while hiking, it’s the first layer I put on.  If I need more warmth as the night falls, then I will add layers under it.  For me, it’s normally the top layer with the exception of layering it under my rain jacket for extra warmth or rain.  I never hike in my Montbell ExtLight down jacket.  I find it too hot to hike in in 3 season weather (which I define as 20F or warmer); even when it’s snowing.  I’ve never lasted more than 15 minutes of hiking in the morning out of camp before I had to pull the down jacket off.

Around camp at night or in the morning, I normally layer my wind shell on top of my down jacket or vest as it provides more warmth and keeps any breezes from stealing heat out of the jacket.  My down jacket is never directly against my skin except maybe my arms.  Even if the down is slightly compromised due to oil/dirt on my arms, that isn’t going to make my body feel much colder.  I don’t find laundering a down jacket to be much harder than any other clothing item other than using a down detergent instead of my normal one in my washer at home.  Not that I launder my jacket more than every 1-2 years since I don’t hike in it and thus don’t sweat in it much.

For a low of 20F or higher, the most layers I will carry are lightweight thermal top and bottom, lightweight long pants and long sleeve hiking shirt, wind jacket, wind or lightweight rain pants (the <6oz type), rain jacket (<8oz type), Montbell Ext. UL down jacket, a lightweight balaclava, and MLD rain mitts.  For warmer temperatures, I may swap the down jacket for a vest or just leave it at home.  I can actually go a bit colder than 20F with these layers, but I would never deliberately do so as that is my safety margin.  I do generate a lot of heat hiking when the trail is climbing so what works for me doesn’t work for everyone.

Let’s not be disingenuous with “wind shirt.” Our nigh industry standard, the Patagonia Houdini, is a wind jacket. In fact, the only major hiking-oriented product that I can think of whose manufacturer calls it a shirt is the Marmot DriCLime. When we over-use the word “windshirt” it’s a colloquialism, and because we’re lazy and it’s one less syllable.

Worn under insulation, it’s a wind shirt.  Worn over insulation it’s a wind jacket. Multi-purpose ;-)

A few years ago I wrote about the Magic “Houdini” Windshirt.

In the summer and shoulder seasons, I tend to wear my wind shirt underneath my down when I am stopping for breaks and the weather is cool. I will be sweating from hiking, and I don’t want my sweat to wet my down. So unless I’m already wearing it, I’ll dig out my wind shirt first, put it on, then put my down over my wind shirt. This keeps my sweaty base layer away from my down. I don’t do much hiking in the winter, so my base layer is almost always sweaty. If I’m still cold or if it’s raining, I’ll throw my rain jacket over my down.

If I get to camp and my clothes dry or I put my sleep shirt on, then I’ll wear my wind shirt over my down.

I’m claiming “big-endian”. You jacket-under-puffy people are the “little-endians”.

I thought you were a Dr., not a computer programming nerd!?!  ;)