Why You Should Spend a Few Ounces of Pack Weight on Rainwear Ventilation Features

[Brett Peugh]

Hey Gerald,

 

I picked up a OR Guardian I and it seems pretty okay.  Does yours have an inner storm flap?  There have been quite a few issues with the waterproofness of Ascentshell.  What is your experience?  I was thinking about an Interstellar but for less than 2 ounces I get pit zips and 50d compared to 20d.  Thank you.

 

I am limited in my choices because I need an XXL so I am looking at something like this or the Marmot Eco Precip.  Has anyone actually used this jacket because people are saying it gets overwhelmed in heavy rain.

Thank you.

[Gerard Mulford]

Brett – your reasoning matched mine.  Interstellar got some great press, and for a couple ounces more I went with the Guardian II for the features and durability.  I think the stormflap is on the outside.  And FYI, I’m using the XXL myself.

During light/moderate activity, it seems to stay comfortable far longer than the Goretex I’ve worn in the past (which just seem to condense my sweat).   And it’s stretchy but pretty durable.

“…overwhelmed in heavy rain…” seems kinda subjective.  It was unseasonably cold and rainy in NM in July, with 6-7 solid days of rain…  I was backpacking, and both the OR Guardian II jacket and Marmot Precip full zip pants exceeded my expectations, I more or less lived in them for a week…  The jacket did wet out eventually (shoulder area, under my pack straps), but I would still not call that “overwhelmed”.

[Brett Peugh]

Thanks.  I was talking about the Marmot getting overwhelmed.  Glad for the info.  I like the Guardian I because I can totally open it and dump heat easily.  The reassurance that it will preform well in a long rain is great.  Thanks.

[Stephen Seeber]

Hi Gerard:  When you experienced wet out, did any moisture leak through and did you experience any loss of comfort?  Thanks.

[Krishna M]

I had a day hike experience this summer (7/18) in the Sierras which reminded me of this article. There was a hail storm and sustained downpour (with lightning) for many hours up at Mt. Whitney. I made the decision to turn back at 13500ft on my summit attempt. I put on a hardshell for the way down which is the same Beta LT mentioned in this article. The jacket was fully zipped and kept me comfortably cool with a merino baselayer. It was now cold enough (I think the 40s maybe) that my hands were getting numb from being wet and I tucked them into the jacket sleeves which for me are overly long. I also did not feel the impact of the hail once the jacket was on. I slipped a few times on wet rock and the jacket did not show any signs of abrasion as I was rubbing it on the trailside rocks as I fell. I started sweating once below treeline as it was warmer here. The pit-zips came in handy which I opened up fully. This kept me cool and the sweating stopped.

I do not have any experience with ultralight rain jackets. The Montbell Versatile and Outdoor Research Helium, were the two that I was considering to fill that gap in my layering system. I was wondering how these kind of jackets would fare in the kind of conditions that I described above, especially the hail? I actually wanted to get an ultralight rain jacket specifically for the Sierras which now seems a bit scary to me after this experience.

[David Hartley]

I have a Beta LT Hybrid (it has traditional 3-layer Goretex in high wear areas, Goretex Paclite in the lower torso, and pit zips), and I have an OR Helium (the latest with the “diamond fuse” fabric), and I would not trust the Helium in the conditions you describe. In sustained rain the DWR completely fails (and yes I have retreated it several times) and the outer fabric wets out, and even though the membrane doesn’t leak – I would be cold in the conditions you describe. I have never hiked in the Sierra, but a few years ago we did some September hiking in the Wind River range and I was very glad to have the Arcteryx jacket – we had it all – initially hot weather (sunny and 80s), then thunderstorms and hail, then sustained heavy rain, and ultimately several days of wet snow. I would not trust the Helium in similar conditions.

I hear good things about the Versalite though – I don’t think it suffers the same outer fabric wet out issue the Helium does.

[Bruce Tolley]

@ Ryan

The Patagonia jacket weighs the same as the Arcteryx.  The Torrentshell is $149 and the Arcteryx $399. Both have pit zips. Do they perform the same under similar conditions?

 

[Ryan Jordan]

The Torrentshell is a great deal on a rain jacket. The Arc’teryx fit me better, so I ultimately went with that. I’m also not a fan of “storm flaps” over the zippers, and I like the waterproof zipper of the Arc’teryx.

I’ve been experimenting with rain jackets this spring and was testing the Outdoor Research Helium AscentShell Jacket, which gets rave reviews. I was not impressed with the construction quality of mine – interior seam tape delaminated in the shoulder strap area and the fabric isn’t as durable as I’d hoped. Mine has several rips and holes in it from bushwhacking, and the shoulder strap area now leaks. I haven’t used this jacket much, only a few months.

I just got back from an 8-day trip in the Colorado Flat Tops. I used my Zeta FL. We had about 6 inches of rain on the trip, and I wore the jacket a lot. It was fine. I added pit zips myself. Bushwhacking through wet willows with a heavy pack pushed it to its limits of breathability, for sure, but the pit zips make it OK.

I’ve worn the Zeta FL a ton, and it has zero leaks, no delam or other construction defects. It’s been a good purchase for me.

I no longer put much faith in ultralight rain jackets in sustained rain. They just don’t last, and they can’t really cope with heavy conditions for very long. I do still use one (Montane Minimus 777 pullover) for when the weather forecast is good. But even that one is wearing out, so I’ll be back on the hunt this fall…

[Brett Peugh]

Thanks for adding that last piece so that we know ORs Helium Rain jackets are 0 for 4.  :)

[Bruce Tolley]

@ Ryan. Thanks.  I don’t like flaps over zippers either.

I would think the use case for something like the OR Helium is summer backpacking in the Sierra Nevada on shortish trips where you know the weather forecast where you might encounter a daily thunder shower that lasts 45 minutes.

For shortish trips where you have forecasts or chances of sustained rain or on longer trips where all kinds of weather might happen, seems like you do need to carry a Goretex Paclite garmet or better.

[Todd G]

Does anyone have ideas for bushwhacking in hot humid tropical rainforest? It’s ok to get wet but it gets awful if you’re in it for hours. Ideally it would be tough material that won’t get torn apart by sticks and spines, lots of ventilation, and fully waterproof.

[Bill Budney]

Military poncho? They are tough enough to use as a stretcher, and are issued for warm weather jungle environments.

I like to add a full-length front zipper to ponchos, for even better ventilation and easy on/off. However, many/most people use them without the zipper.

Or The Packa? It is available in 30d and 40d fabrics.

[jscott]

“We had about 6 inches of rain on the trip, and I wore the jacket a lot. ”

No kidding! that’s a ridiculous amount of rain.

I’m curious about the objection to zipper storm flaps.  I’m assuming that it’s because they wet out and become useless. Well, yeah, in 6 inches of rain that might be the case. But in mere torrential circumstances lasting a day or two with 1-2 inches of rain?

Honestly I’ve never thought about storm flaps; others here may not have either.

looking at the Packa, for example, there are no storm flaps over the zippers. A good thing?

[jscott]

addendum to my above post: I wasn’t being contradictory, for once. I’m actually curious about this. Ryan and others are far more experienced than me with this topic, so it’s a chance to learn.

And then be contradictory. the opposite of what I usually do.

[Michel S]

Yes! I swear by Outdry Extreme. People here have told me again and again that it’s not possible to stay dry in prolonged rain, but that’s not my experience. 7 days of non-stop rain on Hornstarndir, Iceland (close to freezing), 6 days of non-stop rain in Scotland…off trail, vigorous 12-15hr/day hiking… dry (Yes, DRY!) and comfortable all the time.

Maybe I’m lucky I don’t sweat so much, but I can make this work without pit zips (which to me are just another point of failure). Adjusting cuffs, hood and front zipper is enough. I combine it with non-breathable AntiGravityGear Ultralight Rain Pants and this works so well for me, I don’t even care about the weather anymore.

I stay away from anything with DWR, as that never worked for me (even $500 WP/B jackets). So that leaves out all the options mentioned in this article. It was good to see that Stephen Seeber was cautiously positive about an Outdry jacket in a recent BPL article, but in general WP/B seems to be the norm here (and ponchos as alternative). I think I perceive a lack of interest from the lightweight hiking community for Outdry. Which is a shame, because more interest might motivate Columbia to develop it further.

[Dom O]

There’s an interesting episode on The Outdoors Station podcast featuring  Mike Parsons of Karimoor/OMM episode 560 – Outdoor Gear Coach. In it he & host Bob Cartwright discuss the perhaps misnomer about the “3 layer system” in that it doesn’t literally mean three layers, rather it is a concept built around base layer(s), mid layer(s), windshirt & finally waterproof shell. Puffy jacket for rest stops and around camp, and to supplement our sleep systems. So in fact, our “3 layer system” could be made up of multiple layers within each of those three subcategories.

[Josh J]

if your dealing with cold/wind/rain why wouldn’t you consider a fully waterproof jacket like LHG? it’s got huge pit zips and depending on size around 6-8oz

[Eli]

A couple years ago on a multi-week thru-hike I was happy with my old Luke’s Ultralight silnylon rain suit that weighed 8oz for both jacket and pants… Until an intense, cold two-hour rain storm gave me a close brush with hypothermia. I knew it was time for a change, and I’ll be heading into this shoulder season with an Arc’teryx Beta LT + Beta Pants rain suit. This aligns with the broader theme in my hiking journey, and that I’ve noticed on BPL lately, of accepting an increased weight in favor of long-term durability, a reduced “finicky factor”, and resilience in the backcountry in the face of unpredictable conditions.

[Jerry Adams]

why did silnylon rain suit result in close call with hypothermia?

did water condense inside the rain suit?

[wayne R Clark]

nothing lets the sweat out through a fabric once the fabric has wetted out,  the sweat has to remain as vapour and it cant do that when the fabric has a  complete layer of liquid water on it.  its just any ventilation that’s letting hte sweat out

[Eli]

I’ll clarify: This was a cold, dumping mountain rain storm and somehow water began to get into my rain jacket and pants, perhaps flowing in from a structureless hood rim, perhaps there were micro perforations in the fabric — either way I took away a sense of disappointment at my own lack of preparedness. I also didn’t have a fleece when that could have made all the difference despite a soaking, which could be seen as a bigger indictment than the quality of my jacket.

I’m certainly not going to claim that “all silnylon rain gear is inadequate”, but, generally speaking, the more conventional Gore-Tex fabric along with a high quality construction gives me a sense of confidence and security in inclement weather that I didn’t used to have with the 4oz silnylon jacket, or with a Frogg Toggs etc. In fact, I thru-hiked the entirety of the CDT with a Integral Designs poncho tarp and a Houdini jacket+pants as my rain wear, sometimes clinging to the poncho tarp with both hands in an effort to prevent it from whipping in the wind on an exposed ridge, so I feel a familiarity with the UL options.

The larger “vibe” that I want to express agreement with is that sometimes the more robust item that weighs more is easier, simpler, more reliable, and more pleasant to use across a wider range of conditions. So I retired the sil and got a Beta LT on sale.

[Roger Caffin]

the more conventional Gore-Tex fabric along with a high quality construction gives me a sense of confidence and security in inclement weather
LONG long ago I would have agreed with this, until on one alpine trip I got soaked through my heavy-weight 3-layer GTX jacket. Most unhappy, so I took it to the Sydney Gore agency for testing. Under light water pressure the shoulders made like a sprinkler hose: fountains of water everywhere.

What had happened? The local scrub can be prickly, and the very fine tips of the harsh leaves had made a colander of the GTX membrane. Literally tens of holes in each shoulder. NOT covered by warranty. My expensive jacket was toast.

Yes, those same spikey leaves can perforate my silnylon poncho, but the silicone coating tends to be self-healing. The holes close up and (generally) don’t leak. Yes, I can get damp in icy rain, but the moisture is my own sweat. The smooth silnylon slides off the wet scrub, where the GTX fabric was catching and being perforated.

Cheers

[Jerry Adams]

thanks for the clarification eli

it’s funny how some people are satisfied with WPB performance, but others not

this is what’s good about BPL – you get multiple alternatives so people can try and use what works for them.  There’s no “right” answer

[Eli]

Well put

[Stephen Seeber]

Since the new Arcteryx Beta SL was discussed above, I will add this:  I tested three variations of the Beta (SL, LT and AR) in 2021 for MVTR here. The new SL version available at REI uses Gore’s new ePE membrane, which I have been curious about. The 2021 version had an MVTR of 1980 grams/square meter/24 hours, while the new one tested at 2000. So, it is essentially identical in performance and still mediocre.   It is unclear if they can/will extend this membrane to the Pro line.  It is also unclear whether the new DWR formulation performs better than the C6 variations that are now replaced.

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