What's your winter tent?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Ed

Yes, a high snow loading can break poles. But there is a very simple remedy: internal storm guys. They block the problem completely. I have attached a jpg showing how they work.

When the snow load tries to push the top of the tent down, the internal guy rope(s) prevent that from happening. I use them.

Cheers

[Pigeon]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Huh, first time I’ve seen internal storm guys. Can you explain the details? Normal guyline material under tension? Are there connection points designed into your tent or do those get rigged only in a near emergency?  Do you think it would be reasonable to try this in a dome tent? (Probably not an easy option in my dome tent with poles that clip outside, still curious.)</p>
 

[Roger Caffin]

You don’t get internal storm guys on tarps and pop-ups: they just would not work.
You can have them on tunnel tents (obviously!), and you can have them on geodesic domes.
If you look closely at the diagram you might get the impression that the attachment points for the internal guys are an integral part of the attachment points for the external guys. That is how I make them on my tunnel tents. However, I am sure you could add them to an existing tent with a little thought.

The guy line material itself is not super critical. You could use Spectra if you wanted to, but I just use plaited nylon cord about 1 mm dia. It is actually just bricklayers string. to be sure, that can stretch a bit, but it takes some force to do that, and snow loading does not normally create anywhere near such high forces. Do reinforce the attachment points themselves though.

Cheers

[Franco Darioli]

Stephensons have them :

and Vango have a variant called TBS (an Aarn Tate patent)

[Roger Caffin]

Ah – NO!
I know the so-called tension band concept and I have used it on a dome I made long ago (probably before any Aarn patent). Thinking about it, I was using that sort of tension system around 1966 – 1968. It did stop sideways movement as the diagram suggests. But it does NOT handle top-loading as from snow, and it is not meant for that. It cannot. Do a mental simulation and you will see what I mean.

The Stephensons idea looks as though you would not want to exit in a hurry in the middle of the night. I am not a fan.

Cheers

[Edward John M]

Roger I know about the internal storm guys but for some reason I did not think of them for this tent.

OK some small modification will be needed then to add some attachment points.

Your advice on placement then please Roger. There is a reinforced seam along the sides at the 2/3s height point, would that position be advantageous?

All three poles or just the main pole?

Is there an advantage to using more than one internal guy in an “X” even if it was a very broad and shallow X ?

[Roger Caffin]

OK.
I strongly recommend that they be placed at the same height as the top external guy rope. If possible sew through from the interior attachment to the exterior attachment. The reason is that there will then be a tight continuous guy rope from one side to the other with no room for wiggle. My experience has been that this becomes very stable once you tighten the interior guy rope just a little.

First of all, note that unlike some tunnels, my designs are fully symmetrical. Tunnels which have a long fabric span over the inner tent and then a short span to the end of the vestibule are NOT as stable. Well, my 2c.

On my 3-pole single-skin summer tent I normally only have an interior guy rope on the middle pole. I have attachment points for the other two poles but don’t normally use them. If the weather is going to be that bad, I should have brought my winter tent! Or found a more sheltered camp site.

On my 4-pole double-skin winter tent the interior attachment point is sewn through to the strong Velcro link between the inner and outer tents (red lines), and the outer end of the Velcro is sewn through to the exterior guy rope attachment. The continuity is maintained.

Cheers

[Edward John M]

Yes That corresponds to a point I can find. I may have to sew a button hole in the inner tent, sew a strong tape loop to the pole sleeve and thread the loop thru the button hole but I can do this with hand stitching so I maintain maximum pole clearance.

If brickies twine is strong enough then a stitch strength of ~120kilos on each side would seem to be adequate

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Internal Guying – a very interesting engineering concept. I like it as a high wind emergency measure.  But I would not want to navigate them every time I used the tent. I see internal guys as good, even necessary when external guys are “challenged” by severe conditions.

 

REGARDING FLY SUPPORT POLES: When I began “winterizing my TT Scarp 2 I bought a sturdier main pole (larger diameter W/ thicker pole walls) from Tentpole Technology. Due to increased pole stiffness it was necessary to pre-bend the top four sections so I had to send them the exact measurements of erected main pole height and width.

In addition, as many here know, I moved my optional crossing poles under the fly by shortening them and putting the pole end receiver grommets on top of the triangular CF corner “PitchLock” poles for a very sturdy pole base.Then I sewed 4 stake loops equidistant on the fly hems to prevent flapping in high winds. This is now a standard feature on a several Tarptents like the Scarp series.

Finally I prepared all 4 guy lines with LineLoc sliding tensioners and snap hooks for fast setup in a storm.

So far this arrangement has easily survived steady 40 mph. winds and gusts to 58 mph. according to the local weather service report. Snow loading has not been tested with the Scarp 2 B/C I never had the winter luck to do so with this tent, only with my Moment DW and its modded X-ing pole. It did very well in a wet 1 1/2 ft. snowfall.

With the Scarp series Gen. 2 lower flys, the optional X-ing poles and ripstop inner tent the Scarps are decent 4 season tents.

[Roger Caffin]

I was not sure about the snap hooks at first, but I was thinking of plastic mitten hooks. Maybe you mean metal ones? I was going to question the extra weight, until I realised I have Ti wire hooks on my snow stakes, which is about the same thing. And while I have UL MYOG adjusters on my summer tent, I have resorted to ClamCleats on my winter tent for adjustment. So it all sounds rather similar.

Cheers

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Roger, I’m using Tarptent’s snap hooks, very similar to plastic mitten snap hooks. If wind is severe enough to break them then better they fail than tear the fly at the attachment point. I can always tie into the fly’s guy loop later if necessary.

I always carry these 4 guy lines for either my Moment DW solo tent or my Scarp 2. Even without the extra support of the internal X-ing poles the guys will do a good job of protecting the tent. End guys clove hitch around shortened hiking poles and are staked down. Plus staked down fly hems also give more security, especially from seemingly never-ending flapping during the night when I need sleep.

[Roger Caffin]

Um – flapping. Never a good thing as it transmits increased forces to the poles and the rest of the tent. At the risk of being repetitious, my tunnel tents do NOT flap. The fabric spans are short and the fabric tension is high. That works to 100 kph for the 4-pole tent.

Problems getting out in the night past the internal guys – yeah, could be. But they are high enough off the deck that one can duck under them, and for the most part we don’t need to nick out during the night. And anyhow, the internal guys have a small wire hook at one end: problem solved!

Cheers

[BPLwiia]

Just got a Seek Outside 4-man tipi and wood stove so I’ll be hot tenting this winter. Looking forward to being able to dry out clothes and take the chill off things when in the tent.

 

 

[Robert n]

Mine is very similar, but much much cheaper, I  bought a big agnes yahmolite ( originally Shangri-la 5 ) for $250 put my own stove jack in, and bought a lte outdoors titanium cylinder wood burning stove,  for $236, it has a 10 inch cylinder by 18 inches long firebox I paid an extra 25 or 30 for the inside damper. But to tell you the truth with that big of a stove for that size tent it’s way too hot with the damper. Without stove it’s supposed to sleep 5 but with stove 3 and gear and some extra wood is about it, the great thing is; all of it weighs just under 8 lbs

[Mike M]

I’ve got a SO Silvertip with a stove jack, going to get their littlest stove for it; have used it without the stove- bomber little shelter w/ a dozen stakeouts (can be used with just six)

[Eric Blumensaadt]

@ Roger,

With a tunnel or dome tent well supported with good pole geometry/placement I would think internal guying would not be needed for even the wettest snow load (from a storm). It’s been my experience the snow eventually slides off, necessitating an occasional dig-out of the area by the tent walls to keep them from being pushed in by the snow build up.

Perhaps if you are forced to pitch your tent by evergreen trees where a small avalanche from snow-laden branches is likely then those internal guys would be the factor that saves the tent. I once pitched my tent near, but not under, a snow heavy evergreen tree and high winds suddenly pushed some of that “tree avalanche” snow on my tent, scaring the checkout of me. Luckily the poles held.

What’s your experience with wet snow build up (apart from tree avalanches)?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Eric

I was stupid enough to pitch my single-skin (blue) tent right under a steep bank above the tree line. It was sunny and Autumn at the time, but storms can brew up in our mountains in a couple of hours. One did, and dumped more than a foot of snow on my tent. I think the tent would have survived that, but the wind over the steep bank above the tent shed vortices which slammed down onto the tent while it was loaded. Very abrupt high pressure pulses. Sigh – cannon boom and CF poles broke. Chuckle: last night of long trip! My internal storm guys will prevent that.

Cheers

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Rog,

If I ever do internal guys/”clotheslines” it would be for my Scarp 2 with the lines going through tiny reinforced holes in the inner tent to the higher Velcro pole wraps for the poles in my modification that runs them beneath my fly.

I’d likely just tie them around the Velcro pole wraps between the fly and the pole. Plenty strong.

But exterior guys are the only thing that will help with high winds – well, those and prayer.

[Roger Caffin]

The inner skin in my winter tent has Velcro connections in the right places – by design.

You will note the continuity from the exterior guy lines to the internal storm guy.

On my single-skin summer tent the storm guys go to the pole seams.

Cheers

[Jan Paul M]

I have a Duplex for three season use, but now my youngest son wants to go wintercamping. I have seen the images of the Duplex in the winter. Having used it in strong winds I’m not afraid it will collapse, when used with trekking poles, the extra cross poles and properly guyed out. I’m more afraid of getting spindrift in through the ventilation system underneath the tent and not getting any fresh air once the underside is completely covered in snow. I’m considering a supermid, maybe with an inner for two persons so half the tent can be used as vestibule for gear and cooking. I like the low weight (of course) and the fact that you can almost stand up in them. They also have ventilation on the top. I prefer livability over strength. But can anyone share their real life experiences? I understand a mid will flap in high winds, but I have experienced serious storms in the summertime in the mountains as well, so I expect a mid to survive that, otherwise you can’t even use them in the summer. I won’t use it in high alpine areas, but a tundra in Sweden will probably be equally challenging. Please help me out.

[Michael S]

Hilleberg Unna with extra set of poles.

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