What weight of fleece would I need in a vest to make it comparable with down?

thermal pro hi-loft to be even close in dry conditions …

in constantly cold wet conditions … well if yr using it when active (you WILL get damp/wet) … any decently fuzzy fleece is better than a thin down sweater

;)

the 32 degree fleece I just posted from costco would make an excellent vest, it is very warm.  $13.

The answer is probably none but the closest would be Polartec Thermal Pro High Loft that Eric mentioned.

Also note that unlike a down jacket fleece has no wind resistance by itself and even the slightest breeze robs massive amounts of heat. You will need to cover it with some sort of shell to get maximum warmth out of it.

I am not aware of any High Loft vest for men but Mountain Hardwear has a warm looking thermal pro vest.

Fleece and down are two different animals with basically the same goal: insulation.
Fleece breaths easily, has fair insulating properties when wet, and weighs a lot more than down. It would take around three to four times the weight of down for the same insulating properties when dry. Basically, the heavier the pile on fleece, the more prone it is to matting. So heavy weight fleeces are not as good as two light weight fleeces when wet or dirty (as when you are on a longer unsupported trip.)

Down, by it’s nature, requires two shells, an inner and outer. In very extreme environments, a plastic or cuben series of down pockets is used under a heavier nylon outer shell and a fleece inner shell. Mostly because when it gets wet, it looses loft/insulating properties. A down sweater or vest, will block wind far better and be much lighter. Down insulation is far better, provided it is possible to avoid water/dampness/perspiration.

I have tried to go out with one or the other. I always miss the item I DIDN’T bring. So, I usually carry both.

Typically, I carry a light weight fleece I can cover with my rain jacket if wind is a real problem (leaving the bottom, chest, and cuffs loose.) Perspiration can be a problem in all day+ storms, so, down is not the best for this. In a pinch, I have used the two together, though. My down is a light 12oz down sweater. Half the time or more, I use the down at camp and for sleeping. It will be fairly dry usually, but the WPB will protect it enough for a brief trip out from under my tarp.

Basically, they work for different purposes: Hiking and camp. I spend about 8-10 hours hiking, more or less. And about 14-16 hours at a camp site. I really need both because of the different properties.

fleece is more than 10 x the weight as down for the same warmth

You’d need to wear several fleece jackets on top of each other

Fleece is good when it’s cold and you’re exercising and you just need a little warmth and you don’t want to sweat.  And it’s still good when wet.

Matthew,

I have the Chameece Vest and it’s good as a thin midlayer when its cold and/or raining while moving: light, indestructible and just enough to take the chill off. It does not compare to a down vest, though, even a UL one like the Ghost Whisperer, but I wouldn’t hike in a down vest in the PNW either.

I always carry a windshell, though, and it paris I would never compare it to a down jacket though.

My melanzana high loft hoodie is made from 300 weight polartec thermal pro. I would say that under a rain jacket, it’s comparable to most ultralight down jackets. It weighs 13 ounces. It’s so thick that It’s hard to fit under most properly sized wind shirts.

Polartec thermal pro is at another level of warmth per weight compared to classic fleece.

the CLO/oz for 800 FP down is 1,68

the CLO/oz for Polartec Hi Loft  is 0,214

or a down/hiloft fleece ratio of 7,85/1

I agree. Nothing is as affordable and effective as 700+ fp down as insulation. But, you cannot usually use it for hiking and in damp weather. For those conditions, fleece or synthetic is better. Hmmm, maybe wool, but wool is heavy.

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.

I think that a fleece vest will not quite do what I would have hoped it would.

Still, in regards to info like Woubeir posted, the difference in warmth ration, especially for a UL garment, must be offset by the fact that down needs a shell and fleece does not. Most the weight in a down vest is liner/zippers, not down.

Montbell’s UL down vest is 5.1 oz with 1.4 oz of down. Their Chameece is 5.5 oz, and I would guess that at least 4.5 oz of that is fleece. Obviously the liners of the down vest are adding to the warmth to, but I doubt you would actually need 7 of the Chameece to be as warm as the UL down.

To do a little math, 1.4 oz down * 7.85 ration / 4.5 oz fleece = 2.44
If you factor in the liners of the vest, maybe the fleece is one third as warm as the UL down. And that is of course presuming you are protected from the wind in some way.

Matthew,

No “I would guess” with these numbers; they are some of my  “Iclo/ total garment oz.” lab tests:

MB Chameece Vest = .018
REI 200 Thermal Pro Vest = .025
Patagonia Down Sweater Vest Special Edition (2 oz fill) = .192
Montbell Alpine Light Down Vest (2.8 oz fill) = .181

There is a ~10x better ratio for 800 fill down versus Chameece fleece vests, as “static insulation”. Where fleece provides its primary benefit is as a “active insulation” layer. An “active insulation” only needs to be ~1/4 of what you need versus “static insulation” for any temp.

Is that taking a shell into account?

Ya might want to try a synthetic insulated vest.. I recommend one filled with Climashield, which retains its loft better than other top synthetic fills.

DC.

Yes, it is Iclo divided by TOTAL garment weight. That includes the insulation, fabric layers, zippers, snaps, pockets, etc.

The thing to consider with warmth per weight of fleece vs down is that fleece is much warmer when there is a shell on top. Part of the reason that fleece is not as warmth for the weight is that its an air permeable insulation. When you put a rain jacket or windshirt over a fleece, then what is the warmth per weight (not considering the weight of the shell because you already need to carry that anyways)?

I would be very curious to see what the warmth per weight rating of my melanzana high loft hoody is. I feel that it is the warmest per weight fleece that exists in the world. If you were ever interested in measuring it Richard I would be happy to send it to you.

Justin,

Out of the wind, both fleece and light weight stitch-through down garments are EQUALLY improved in warmth when a properly sized wind shirt is layered over them (~.6 Iclo). Obviously fleece has a more dramatic difference when in the wind.

I have a Melanzana high loft hoody but I haven’t thermal tested it. The Melanza high loft hoody has significantly more material volume than any other fleece garment I have looked at. Its length approaches that of a shorty bathrobe plus there is a giant kangaroo pocket on the front of it.This would disadvantage it in a iClo/total oz. comparison. Its High Loft Thermal Pro fleece seems to be most similar to the High Loft Thermal Pro fleece used in the ECWCS level 3. The ECWCS level 3 Polartec Thermal Pro (Iclo .571) thermal tests about the same as a classic Polartec 300 fleece (Iclo .555).Its primary differentiators from classic fleece is its lower weight and improved ability to be compressed for packing.

Thanks for all your posts here Richard.

Do you have the Iclo’s of the various garments you have tested available to see somewhere?

I am trying to revamp my clothing system and wondered if you had already rated some similar garments to what I am considering.

Now I am considering Montbell’s Thermawrap Sport Vest:

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=2002&p_id=2301171&gen_cd=1

Claims to be insulated as well as wind resistant.

I tested the Melanzana fleece today and contrary to my original estimate, it is warmer than the ECWCS Level 3. It is 2.3 clo versus 1.8 clo for the ECWCS Level 3. Subtract .6 clo to convert to iclo. Other fleeces that are the same warmth as the Melanzana include the MH Monkey Man and the Patagonia R3 but, they both weigh more.

I personally don’t like the narrow shoulders, lack of a center zip, and robe-like length of the Melanzana. It hangs below most of my shells and catches weed seeds, is difficult to ventilate when required, and binds across my broad shoulders.