What happened to "water resistant" treated down?

there’s some video of the treated down in a container of water.  It never wets out.  Untreated down wets out and becomes useless.

but, it’s hard to equate that to actual usage.  Nobody takes the down in their garment and puts it in a container of water

the useful experiment would be to put treated down on one side of a garment, untreated on the other.  Then use the garment normally including wearing it in the rain and getting it sweaty.  See if there’s any difference.

there’s some video of the treated down in a container of water. It never wets out. Untreated down wets out and becomes useless.

Let me guess: the video was made by the vendors of treated down.

Have you ever seen ducks preening their feathers? They are taking oil from a gland on the body and working it into their feathers and the down under the feathers. That keeps the down in good condition and ‘dry’ while the duck is swimming around in water.

Commercial down has to be cleaned before sale. If it is cleaned carefully and lightly, some of the duck oil remains, and the down remains water repellent to some degree. This is useful. But if you ‘clean’ the down with harsh solvents all the protective duck oil is stripped off. Such down now has no defense against water.

If marketing wants to make a video promoting their DWR treatment, what sort of cleaned down will they use?

The same applies to wool from sheep and other animals: it carries lanolin which is water repellent and protective – but lanolin has a faint smell. You don’t want that on an expensive wool suit, so the wool is scoured to remove all the lanolin. (The lanolin is commercially valuable too.) But you can buy ‘greasy wool socks’ and similar gloves for use in harsh conditions. Same story.

Moral: NEVER believe marketing videos or spin.

Cheers

LL Bean uses it

Eddie Bauer uses it

The North Face uses it and the other brands mentioned here.

I will no longer buy down that dows not have a DWR treatment.

Ask yourself, “How often I wash my down products?” Likely much less than once a year. Most reputable DWR sill stay viable for at least 20 washings in down specific soaps. Good enuf fer me.

What Roger said.

Most reputable DWR sill stay viable for at least 20 washings in down specific soaps.

I wish I lived in that world.  I’m usually happy if a DWR application lasts until the first washing. </cynicism>

It’s a bold claim that they can make DWR stick to the tiny fluffy bits of down, make it durable, not make it heavy, and not trash the down itself when the DWR gives up the ghost.  I haven’t seen bold data.  And since I haven’t experienced any noticeable problems with untreated down (that can’t be prevented with simple precautions), I’m not buying into the claims of the mass consumer-oriented places.

Ask me again in about 25 years.

As far as I know, three of the premier down product manufacturers (Valandre, Western Mountaineering, Feathered Friends) continue to use untreated down….which in my opinion says all I need to know. Additionally, I lived in the PNW for a decade and most trips were in the Olympic National Park/Forest with untreated down…..and somehow I always managed to keep the down dry regardless of days of extremely wet conditions.

I wish I lived in that world. I’m usually happy if a DWR application lasts until the first washing.

Is this based on actual experience with DWR down, or a study that we can look at? If so, it would be very helpful if you could share more info!

And even if it did last just one/a few washings, why not put the Nikwax treatment in the wash? I probably apply some DWR treatment to my Gore-Tex every second or third time I wash it. Though I’m not sure it’s washing that causes the DWR coating to need renewing …

It’s a bold claim that they can make DWR stick to the tiny fluffy bits of down, make it durable, not make it heavy, and not trash the down itself when the DWR gives up the ghost.

I must say that on the one hand, I don’t see anything bold about the claim. On the other hand, it would not be surprising if it’s not infinitely durable, and that the manufacturers didn’t/weren’t able to test the long-term effects on the down.

Regarding how long the benefits last, it will rarely be exposed to some of the things that cause DWR coatings on fabrics to wear out, like lots of water and abrasion. But more importantly, it can be renewed, so who cares? That would be like saying don’t buy clothing or sleeping bags with a DWR coating because it wears out.

Regarding the long-term effect on down, if you want to maximize the chances the expensive product you buy will last 40 years, then buying untreated down is less risky (at least in that regard), so I can understand that being a reason to go with untreated down. However, this stuff has been around for a while now, so if it was causing quick deterioration, we’d have heard about it. So if you are willing to risk needing to replace your jacket/bag in maybe 10 years in order to get a product that performs better (and I am), then this isn’t an issue. But how much better it actually performs is!

I always managed to keep the down dry regardless of days of extremely wet conditions.

A lot of people have made the very valid point that there are things you can do to keep down dry, it’s about know-how, etc. All true, and since rain, sweat, humidity, and untreated down do not have to mean you freeze, untreated down is very good stuff. Maybe the treated stuff, if it works, is just for people who don’t have the know-how. Maybe it’s just for fools. But no matter how good the untreated stuff is, it can’t be denied that if treated down works, it’s safer. And it’s more versatile and convenient too, because you can use it in more situations, and you don’t have to go out of your way to keep it dry so often or soon. So if it works, using it wouldn’t be foolish. It would be smart.

Having some trouble with this post – let’s try again …

Let me guess: the video was made by the vendors of treated down.

The video I referred to was not made by vendors. Nor was the overnight test done by a user of this forum which I mentioned above. And as I wrote about the video, not only didn’t the DWR down collapse, it fluttered around in the air like it had never seen water. But as also I wrote, who knows, maybe everything I saw and read was fake. (Which in this case could mean that the guy making the video, who I understood to be a non-chain outdoor retailer, had some “help” from a DWR manufacturer.)

As far as I know, three of the premier down product manufacturers (Valandre, Western Mountaineering, Feathered Friends) continue to use untreated down….which in my opinion says all I need to know. Additionally, I lived in the PNW for a decade and most trips were in the Olympic National Park/Forest with untreated down…..and somehow I always managed to keep the down dry regardless of days of extremely wet conditions.

On the other hand, as far as I know, many of the premier down product manufacturers continue to use treated down … which could also say all one needs to know. Until one considers that three of the premier down product manufacturers continue to use untreated down … .

I haven’t seen bold data.

Wow, this thread has really come back to life!

And I think there is one clear conclusion from the discussion so far: We don’t know.

While there is fairly good reason to believe it reduces the impact of moisture for a while, and that it has no short-term adverse effects, we don’t know how long a while is, in what circumstances, nor what happens after “a while”, now how quick it dries, to the extent it gets wet, now how warm it is throughout it’s exposure to moisture, nor what adverse effects it might have in the long run.

Which is weird. Some manufacturers tested the stuff and chose to use it, but didn’t release the test results. Other manufacturers tested it and chose not to use it – but didn’t release the test results. Why? Where is the “bold data” pointing one way or the other?

On this forum, there is a wealth of data that, until signing up, I’d been googling in vain to find about how different waterproof and breathable fabrics compare. (Many thanks especially to, among others, two guys with their own testing equipment for that: Richard Nisley and Stephen S!!!) But no one has tested DWR down and shared the results. Maybe it’s time to change that!

(And if anyone out there has a pair of untreated down mitts/socks/booties, see above for a suggestion about how.)

(Which in this case could mean that the guy making the video, who I understood to be a non-chain outdoor retailer, had some “help” from a DWR manufacturer.)

Sounds a bit like the so-called ‘experts’ who loudly proclaimed that cigarette smoking was harmless.

The first lesson from the tobacco wars was to get someone ELSE to do your PR for you (and to hide the payoffs).

Cheers

My vest has treated down baffles on top, untreated on the bottom.  I haven’t noticed a difference, but I’ve kept it pretty dry.

If some reputable manufacturers use it, some not, there probably isn’t a big difference.

I think marketing hype isn’t so much lying, as just distracting on something not important.  Like putting down in a container of water.  That doesn’t tell you how it will work in a garment in real use.

I think that I will use whichever is convenient.  That fact that its treated or not doesnt matter.

I don’t get over here often and was surprised to see all the additional responses.

As far as chemicals, I’m with Gabe, Bradmacmt (& others?). It’s both ignorant and arrogant to claim the safety of chemicals because they are in commerce, or on the assumption that some regulatory system is safeguarding us all. I challenge anyone who believes otherwise to review the Government Accountability Office (GAO) reports on our chemical regulatory system which is the Toxic Substance Control Act under the EPA. The GAO has reports on this dating back to the 80s, I believe. Your tax $ helped fund these reports.

And I’m with Roger on treated down. It may offer some benefits in certain conditions for a certain amount of time. I don’t know. But, like someone said, I think it says quite a bit that Western Mountaineering and Feathered Friends don’t use it. And lets not forget that FF is based out of Seattle, a place not known for its dryness.

Many companies will latch on to any benefit how ever small or irrelevant it is in the real world just to get a leg up on the competition or to sell more stuff that people don’t need. They know most consumers like new shiny things, trends, to wow their friends with the latest and greatest. Their marketing teams also play on people’s fears. They’re good at it and there’s no shortage of fear or people looking towards technology to keep them “safe” or to save their bacon.

Off my Sunday soapbox now. Thanks for all the replies.

This is off the Feathered Friends website explaining why the do not use water-resistant down:

“Do you use water-resistant down?

Treated down (“dry down”) is a technology that was developed to decrease drying time for hotel comforters in commercial dryers, and we very purposefully do not use it in any of our products. Besides decreasing the longevity of the high-quality down we use by stripping the down of its natural oils, we’ve also seen little real-world benefit to the use of durable water repellency (DWR) directly on the down plume. Wet down clusters do not insulate, regardless of any coating applied to keep them dry, and we’ve found that body heat or ambient air flow — rather than a dryer– isn’t sufficient to make dry down an effective tool in keeping you dry, and therefore warm. Treated down is also more prone to clumping than untreated down, which makes it tricky to keep properly lofted within a garment or sleeping bag. The bottom line: untreated down will last longer and perform better than treated down, a view shared by some of the field’s leading manufacturers. Because of this, it’s important to keep your down sleeping bags and garments as dry as possible, which is why all of our sleeping bags and garments use a water-repellent or waterproof fabric.”

Thank you Turley – very relevant and useful. (This is BPL.)

Cheers

That would be like saying don’t buy clothing or sleeping bags with a DWR coating because it wears out.

Which is exactly what I do. No GoreTex or anything that requires a DWR.

Thanks, Turley.

Your post inspired me to see what Western Mountaineering was saying these days…another smaller company that’s been around a long time and is respected. I’d trust them and Feathered Friends any day over the bigger companies buying big ads in Backpacker mag. From WMs website:

“Why isn’t Western Mountaineering using hydrophobic down in any products?
We have found in our own testing that the performance enhancements of hydrophobic treatments on high quality down are widely overstated. High quality untreated down already has naturally water repellant oils on it left by the geese (makes sense since geese spend a lot of time in water). These oils help repel water and keep down lofted. More importantly is that these oils last indefinitely. Hydrophobic treatments wash out like a DWR and remove the natural oils during the application process. Because of this, and the water resistant capability of our shell fabrics, we feel that hydrophobic down does not provide a considerable impact on performance and could actually inhibit performance over the lifetime of our products.”

Feathered Friends via Nick

…Treated down (“dry down”) is a technology that was developed to decrease drying time for hotel comforters in commercial dryers..

Should be plenty of experience in terms of how long the technology lasts then, as the laundry room staff may not handle it very gently.

“Should be plenty of experience in terms of how long the technology lasts then, as the laundry room staff may not handle it very gently.”

Good point but the down in hotel comforters will be a fair bit different than the bags we’re talking about. And what would hotel people know about this and how would they measure the differences?. All that stuff gets used “x” amount of times (ie, not many) and then it’s tossed. I have relatives who owned hotels and the things I’m told me make me cringe… as far as waste.

I had occasion to make a new shell for our home quilt some years ago as the fabric as wearing out. That meant transferring the down from the old shell to the new. The down, the feathers, plus the bits of chaff, straw and sand. Oh, very high quality ‘down’, for sure!

Cheers

We have found in our own testing that the performance enhancements of hydrophobic treatments on high quality down are widely overstated. … we feel that hydrophobic down does not provide a considerable impact on performance

I’m very inclined to believe Western Mountaineering that the benefits are overstated, maybe even wildly so. In terms of whether the impact is “considerable”, it would be great to know what the actual impact is. Similarly, from Feathered Friends:

we’ve also seen little real-world benefit to the use of durable water repellency (DWR) directly on the down plume

On the other hand, some manufacturers do see benefit, and it would be great to know how much benefit a “little” means in this case.

I wonder if manufacterer’s different conclusions don’t also reflect different priorities. For instance, if you sell jackets that you expect customers will only wear below zero, on trips where everyone will have a waterproof shell anyway, then the benefits may easily be outweighed by the disadvantages. On the other hand, if you expect customers will use your jackets in warmer conditions, and will also put them on (or not, because they are afraid to get wet) for a half day hike with the kids or a night in town, and not bring a big Gore-Tex parka with them … . Furthermore, if you expect customers to regularly wash their jackets and renew the DWR outer coating, you may not worry about a DWR treatment washing out the oils, because they’ll be washed out anyway (wouldn’t they?). It might also matter whether you are worried about perspiration (which neither FF nor WM mention), or heavy rain, or falling through the ice, or spilling tea.

Otherwise, the quote from Feathered Friends is very interesting, but it raises a lot of questions. For instance, “Wet down clusters do not insulate” – but if the down clusters are not yet wet because they have a DWR coating … . (And the down in the video that got shook around in water and then floated about in the air was clearly not wet.) As I noted before, it would be great if the manufacturers who choose to use or not use DWR down would share their test results, or at least be more explicit about what they have found.

I can find good info online, including a lot of test results, about how different waterproof, breathable fabrics compare (especially on other threads on this forum). Regarding DWR down, all I can find are conflicting conclusions. Wouldn’t we all prefer that we really knew how DWR down compares?

While I still take the contrarian view and use and specify treated down for my gear or treat with Nikwax after market; I just now wonder if the end use has some bearing on whether or not such treatment is beneficial.

If you are an occasional user and the longest time you are out and using the gear is a long week-end such treated down is most probably irrelevant.

If however you are going to be using your clothing and sleeping bag for an extended period of time in poor to extreme conditions then the faster drying time when opportunity presents itself is IMO a real benefit.

Perhaps people are looking at this the wrong way, should instead the discussion be whether to use treated down or VBL clothing and VBL sleeping bag liners?

“Wet down clusters do not insulate” – but if the down clusters are not yet wet because they have a DWR coating
That is not how down insulation works.

The insulation you get with down is mainly due to the thin film of static air around every tiny fibre in every tiny bit of down, and especially to the relatively large amount of air around the tips of those fibres. Air is a great insulator. It is NOT due to the thermal conductivity of the keratin in the fibres themselves: that is largely irrelevant.

So, whether or not the actual down fibres themselves absorb water is not really relevant. If there is bulk water around those fibres, clogging up the space, the down will not insulate – it can’t. As good down does not really absorb water very easily INTO the fibres, any DWR coating on the fibres will have very little effect.

The bottom line here is that you must keep the water out of the bulk down – via a good shell fabric, or by not sweating much inside your down gear.

Cheers

I am aware that down insulates via the air clinging too it. So do synthetic insulations (or in some cases, via air not just clinging to the outside, but also sitting inside). If the jacket or bag is full of water between the inner and outer fabrics, then neither down nor the synthetics will do much good. If the jacket or bag is not so wet, one with regular down still will not insulate if the down absorbed a lot of water, whereas the synthetic one will – because it did not absorb much water and can still hold air in place. As I understand it, DWR treated down is designed to be more like synthetic insulation in this regard.

If Feathered Friends has found that in a variety of situations where enough moisture gets in to compromise ordinary down without actually leaving a big puddle in the baffles, DWR down would lose it’s insulating ability to the same extent at the same time, it would be great if they could share such information with us. As far as I can tell, it is very unlikely that DWR would have zero advantages in such situations. But it seems quite unclear whether the advantages would be little, or significant.

Until Feathered Friends or someone else shares test results, etc., we don’t know.