Warm, lightweight insulated “puffy” jackets

Thanks all.  Stephen answers it here.  For pure static warmth/oz, apex or primaloft gold for the win over alphaD by a long shot:

https://backpackinglight.com/thermal-performance-measurements-synthetic-insulations/

https://backpackinglight.com/seeber-active-insulation/

120 gsm alphaD CLO: 0.65

2.5oz apex: 1.22, so 2oz apex used in torrid CLO ~ 0.98

Comparing apples to oranges, my DAS light hoody with Plumafill is a bit warmer than my Torrid pants with Apex. Cost being a big factor, the Torrid hoody is a better deal, unless you find the DAS on sale.

While the gsm90 alpha works for me, you may be happier with the gsm60. More as a midlayer though. It adds warmth to the Brynje without compromising breathability.

The air mesh octa has similar characteristics to alpha 60, if a bit heavier. But it was $30Can.  I’m happy with it but only add it if it’s quite cold.  I find the Lifa over Brynje works better as a base layer combo.  Still hyper breathable but cuts a wee bit of the wind that the air mesh doesn’t and still doesn’t get wet.  Air mesh goes on top for warmth when needed

Thanks, everyone. This is a wealth of information. Given how many of you have emphasized the distinction between active and static, maybe I should re-frame things into two questions:

1. Active:  What would you most recommend for hiking, above 32 degrees F, to wear over a Capilene baselayer? I’d like one lightweight jacket with a hood, rather than a separate fleece and shell (even though I understand the superiority of layering in other contexts). I wouldn’t use it in the rain – but it could be windy and there could be unexpected drizzles or precipitation.

2. Static:  What warm, lightweight “puffy” jacket, with a hood, would you recommend for relatively static conditions, to wear over a shirt, in colder weather – for when it’s too cold for just a fleece but not cold enough for my Montbell Permafrost Down Parka that I bought in 2010. I wouldn’t have to use it by itself in the rain – but it could be windy or there could be unexpected drizzles or precipitation. Obviously, the better it is for active conditions, all the better – but I understand that it wouldn’t be optimal for active conditions.

I’d like one lightweight jacket with a hood, rather than a separate fleece and shell

Grid Fleece. That’s what people wore before AD+windshirt became dominant.

I wear a windshirt in most weather below about 50F, down to below zero. And I’m wearing Airmesh and/or AD underneath, as well (in various combinations). It is a very versatile pairing for active use.

Grid fleece isn’t really as light or as versatile, but it is one jacket. Performance is decent.

What warm, lightweight “puffy” jacket … for relatively static conditions … the better it is for active conditions, all the better

If you want a puffy to use for active insulation, then your best choices are Timmermade/Torrid or a puffy vest. What you prefer is up to you. As mentioned in my post above, Timmermade makes probably the best puffy for active use.

If you want a down puffy for static use, then Decathlon MH-100 for freezing (and MH-150 for colder weather) are hard to beat for the price. There are many others, of course. Timmermade and Nunatak make some high end and very light pullovers and jackets. There are lots of other good ones, though — too many to list here.

If you search the archive for puffy advice, you’ll find lots of other options. Try search terms like, “site:backpackinglight.com puffy jacket” or “site:backpackinglight.com down jacket”.

For active use above freezing, you really won’t want much insulation over a base layer, IMO. Almost anything will probably be too much once you get going. A wind-shirt is likely enough, but if you run cold, there are some pieces that are basically wind shirts with an extremely thin fleece lining, but no insulation. I have an old Marmot dri-clime wind shirt, which is good for that use case, although TBH I’m more likely to use it below freezing. I was just using it for some easy classic skiing at 25 ˚F over a long sleeve base layer, and I was a little too warm. I still haven’t found anything I like more and obviously they are dirt cheap. My wife has something similar that she uses for skinning from some fancy ski-gear company and cost 5x as much. Some people I know use very thin soft shells for the same purpose.

Thanks! A few questions:

1. Would the R2 TechFace be a good example of “grid fleece”, or would you recommend something else? Also, how would that compare to the Timmermade Alpha Shell Jacket (or anything else where the AD/Airmesh is attached to a windshirt to make one jacket)?

2. You mentioned that the Timmermade Climashield Jacket, followed by the Torrid, might be best for a static puffy that could also be used actively if necessary. In different parts of the BPL site, though, I see the Torrid mentioned as for “at-rest or in-camp” (I don’t really see much at all on the Timmermade), whereas I see the Micro Puff recommended for “stationary and low exertion” and the Proton recommended as an “active insulation jacket” that is breathable. Just curious if you had any thoughts?

3. Also, didn’t PrimaLoft Gold outperform Climashield as the more resilient (durable) insulation, capable of retaining more of its original warmth and loft in response to repeated compression? Does that figure into your thoughts about the Timmermade/Torrid vs. Proton/Nano at all? (I’m not sure if Plumafill or Exceloft were tested or how they fared?)

4. I don’t see much on the BPL site about the Thermawrap Pro, but NOLS recommends it for its courses (including for its lightweight courses). Does anyone have any thoughts? (Or maybe I should post a separate question?)

Most of the materials and jackets you are considering are widely available. Differences are small, but come down to things like face fabrics more than the insulation.

1. Sure, it’s fine. Grid fleece is common: Marmot Reactor, OR Vigor, and MH Power Grid are all good choices as well. Military surplus L2 “waffle top” is a medium-lightweight version of the same stuff — sometimes at bargain prices (but with only a half zip — a full zip allows easier heat dumping).

2. As above, there are a zillion choices and at least as many opinions. What we have all told you is the truth: puffies are mostly for static use or very cold weather. A synthetic puffy with a highly breathable face fabric is maybe acceptable in some active cases, but will never be as comfortable as fleece in the same role. Vests are even more flexible than jackets for active use (but a jacket is warmer when static). Arc’teryx tends to be high quality and high price — it doesn’t usually compete in terms of price:performance, but it’s nice stuff.

3. It’s probably OK. MB stuff is always nice; often on the small side compared to American sizes, so size up. I can’t make sense of the insulation weight (80 gsm = 1.25 osy compared to 2.5 osy for Timmermade and 2.0 osy for Torrid) but the Thermawrap’s finished weight is double the weight of the the others — that doesn’t add up (the shell isn’t THAT MUCH heavier, although it is heavier and maybe more durable). Maybe they use two layers of insulation? In any case, I don’t see the Thermawrap listed as currently available.

Note that buying exotic and expensive gear doesn’t mean that it will be perfect FOR YOU. Super light stuff may not last as long as $30 Walmart clones. There are ALWAYS tradeoffs. Often you can find 80% of the performance for 20% of the price.

It is impossible to choose the perfect jacket for you from an armchair.

Also, it is impossible to pick a perfect jacket for all conditions. Most of us have more than one.

Layering is the key to having flexible combinations that work in a wide variety of conditions. Also: zippers or other ways to dump heat.

One approach is to experiment with less expensive versions to get an idea of what you like, then upgrade later. An inexpensive grid fleece and a light synthetic vest/jacket might be a good starting point. Wear a wind or rain shell over them for colder weather. Once you get more experience with that combination, then you will know better what you want next.

EDIT: While grid fleece gets you a flexible single layer, for the price (and weight) of an R2 you can buy an AD and a windshirt. Alpha Direct and Octa (Airmesh) are the most flexible fleeces. They do the same thing as grid fleece, but they are lighter and dump heat faster when you open your windshirt. Most of the people who recommend that combination have tried grid fleece in the past.

If you do not want separate windshell and alpha/airmesh(octa) type layers, you can find some companies making a combination of a windshell and alpha/octa layer. I have a Marmot Alpha 60 jacket that is a Pertex Quantum Air shell mated to Alpha 60 in a single jacket. Mountain Hardwear makes a similar jacket with its Airmesh and Kor shell combined. Marmot has a similar jacket called an Alt HB.

You can create a modular setup that is lighter than the above my using a windshell and separate alpha/airmesh layer.

R2 grid fleece, techface, and hood adjustment.

I’m partial to Plumafill. Mines held up well.  If I was paying full price, I’d probably go with a Torrid though. Mostly for static use.

Thanks!  Couple follow-ups:

1. When I use google to convert 80gsm to osy, I get 2.36?

2. Given that AD or Airmesh plus a windshirt seem like the best option, but given that I want one jacket, would it be correct to say that the Timmermade Alpha Shell Jacket, the Mountain Hardwear Kor AirShell Warm Hoody, or other such options would be superior to an R2 TechFace?

3. And, if so, which of these (Timmermade Alpha Shell, Kor AirShell Warm, or any others?) would be best?

When I use google to convert 80gsm to osy, I get 2.36?

1) Yes, sorry… I mis-calculated above. The Thermawrap makes more sense that way: similar insulation to the Timmermade, but stronger (less breathable) fabric. Tradeoffs. (I wish BPL would let us make corrections without such a short timeout period).

2) AD/Airmesh plus windshirt is different from a single jacket with Alpha insulation. The difference is that the three-layer jacket gives up the ability to dump heat by opening the shell, which is half of the beauty of AD/Airmesh.

Those jackets are popular, so it isn’t a crazy idea, but they don’t have the higher warmth:weight of Apex/PlumaFill and they don’t have the flexibility of separate layers. That is why they are less popular than either AD/Airmesh+Windshell or Apex/PlumaFill/etc jackets.

3) If you do decide on a three-layer jacket with the same (or similar) insulation, then the differences come down to shell fabric and fit/features. As a very general rule of thumb, Timmermade will usually be lighter and more breathable than other options, MH and Patagonia are more likely to balance higher durability with more modest (but still good) fit/features/weight/breathability.

In the end, after trying and experimenting with many options, most people return to two kits for different purposes:

• Airmesh/AD plus windshirt for most active conditions cooler than a sun shirt.
• Adding a synthetic puffy for static use and very cold weather.

Some additional nuances that I personally prefer, YMMV:

• Airmesh or AD60 for base layer, with half zip for venting.
• AD90 or AD120 for mid layer, full zipper for easier on/off and venting (I had the zipper added by the seamstress at the dry cleaners).
• Light puffy vest for very cold active use. Synthetic holds up better under a shell/pack.
• Puffy jacket for cold static. Down packs better. Goes over other layers.

Bob offered the AD+shell as an alternative, although I don’t think he was recommending it over other options. Apex is almost as breathable as Alpha, but Apex has much better warmth:weight ratio. In other words, you don’t get much advantage in sandwiching Alpha between two layers of shell. It’s mostly disadvantage compared to Apex or individual layers, but only a little.

Timmermade’s Apex jacket is the best of both worlds (warmer and more breathable), with the tradeoffs of being harder to buy and possibly less durable, depending on which fabric(s) you choose. However, it appears to be the single-most-flexible-single-jacket that you can buy (based on specs — I don’t have one).

I have a Marmot Alpha 60 jacket that is a Pertex Quantum Air shell mated to Alpha 60 in a single jacket.

Thanks for mentioning this, it sounds like Marmot’s replacement for the old driclime wind shirts and jackets. I will take a look at these.

Edit: Oops, discontinued.  :-(

Sometimes for sale on Ebay.

A hooded wind shell with sewn-in Alpha plus Alpha lined handwarmer pockets, and made a little oversized for ease of layering is one of my favorite shells for nearly all seasons and conditions

To me putting a wind shirt over alpha is a necessary evil. I’m sure the timmermade combination is very comfortable in the right conditions. I think the R2 is a better option.

Totally makes sense that there wouldn’t be much advantage in sandwiching Alpha between two layers of shell. To clarify, it does look like the Timmermade Alpha Shell jacket is just one layer of shell, with just the AD on the back? I do take the point that that would still give up the flexibility to dump heat by opening the shell only. Anyway, given that, what do folks think would be better between the R2 TechFace and the Timmermade Alpha Shell jacket (or are there any other options that just have the one layer of shell?)? Looks like Terran Terran votes for the R2.

Also, in Seeber’s research, didn’t PrimaLoft Gold outperform Climashield as the more resilient (durable) insulation, capable of retaining more of its original warmth and loft in response to repeated compression? Curious how that figures into people’s thoughts about the Timmermade/Torrid vs. Proton/Nano, if at all? (I’m not sure if Plumafill or Exceloft were tested or how they fared?)

Good point about the Timmermade Alpha Shell. As usual, he is very innovative.

People like both alpha+shell and grid fleece. It might be necessary to try both to see which one you prefer.

Primaloft faired better in repeat compression tests, so don’t squish your Apex if you want it to last longer. Gently stuffing seems OK — no compression bags.

Apex comes in a sheet which makes it much easier to sew. Timmermade has a new Synth Jacket that he says stuffs better than Apex. Austrian G-Loft claims to stuff better as well, but I don’t know US manufacturers who use it. That said, Timmermade doesn’t say which insulation he uses in the Synth Jacket.

A wind shell is fine if there’s wind. The Timmermade is a nice piece, but I don’t think it would be as breathable as the R2 or similar.