Topic

Virtual Reality Backpacking?


Forum Posting

A Membership is required to post in the forums. Login or become a member to post in the member forums!

Home Forums Campfire On the Web Virtual Reality Backpacking?

Viewing 21 posts - 26 through 46 (of 46 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #3737333
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

    I missed the lesson on making points in a concise way in my composition class. Ah, remember when we attended classes in person? Them’s were the days!

    I’m not bitter. Rancid, maybe, but not bitter.

    #3737337
    Kevin Babione
    BPL Member

    @kbabione

    Locale: Pennsylvania

    I’ve missed Doug’s poems…Perhaps it’s time for another limerick contest ;)

    #3737338
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    “So far, machines don’t even have the awareness of an ant. they have none at all.”

    What is “awareness”?

    Do humans have awareness?

    At some low level, brains operate with neurons and synapses and hormones and …  One should be able to make a machine that duplicates that.

    People routinely underestimate how difficult it is though, e.g. driverless cars that keep being predicted right around the corner

    #3737343
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

     

    I agree; more poems by Doug!

    Jerry, humans feel fear when someone points a gun at them and says “I’m going to shut you down now”. That fear proves awareness. Computers feel nothing.
    When  one runs over a child in the sidewalk by accident, one feels remorse, i.e. is aware. A driverless car can’t feel remorse.

    Can anyone mention a single emotion or a single experience that a computer has had? No. Machines have no awareness.

    In VR one is rewarded with points for slaughtering other people. That’s “matching or exceeding reality”? Careful what reality we wish for.

    #3737348
    W I S N E R !
    Spectator

    @xnomanx

    I drive beside Teslas on autopilot on a daily basis. Autonomous vehicles are already in people’s hands. Frankly, human drivers worry me more.

    And I’m not sure why VR/AR/screentime is synonymous with slaughtering people? I just watched a short about an Armenian grandmother brought to tears by “visiting” an Armenian church from her childhood on a VR headset. As if art, literature, cinema (etc.) do not have the ability to uplift us, to make us love, to create awe. VR is a medium; the social/emotional potential is not predetermined.

    The human vs. machine “feeling” debate…There are so many ways to look at this…if you are willing. Klara and the Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro made some very interesting observations on human/machine interactions.

    To be clear, I’m not a futurist, technophile, or VR advocate simply because I’m willing to entertain certain possibilities.

    #3737350
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

    And I’m not sure why VR/AR/screentime is synonymous with slaughtering people?

    I’m thinking of video games here. And yes, of course you’re right, there are other things to view. It’s jsut, in real life, one can’t kill people to score points, or run them over etc. without consequences. In the gaming world–and there will be gaming in VR if there isn’t already–one is rewarded for taking out opponents.

    Isn’t this part of the appeal? One can program reality on screen to eliminate all the bits of real life that don'[t appeal to you. As a result, one’s emotions are ‘editable’ as well. No need for guilt or remorse or sorrow and all the rest. These last are indicators that one is in reality.

    #3737358
    W I S N E R !
    Spectator

    @xnomanx

    Isn’t this part of the appeal?

    For some, sure. But I think you’re approaching this from incredibly narrow parameters.

    #3737371
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    lots of video games aren’t violent

    tetris

    Myst

    candy crush (based on annoying commercials)

    there’s a bunch of heavily advertised games where you create a civilization

    pacman was so abstract away from violence

    donkey cong

    there’s a game where you’re a frog crossing a highway and try not to get crushed to death.  Not violent from a human perspective and pretty abstract.  For frogs it might seem violent : )

    lots of games like solitaire, chess, checkers, bridge, go,…  Far abstracted from any violence

    #3737373
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    when I was a youngster I remember adults being worried rock and roll would ruin civilization.  Yet it continued

    adults get used to things when they’re young and then are uncomfortable with new things that come along that are different

    I remember when I was a youngster and eggs cost a dollar.  I thought it was funny that adults complained that eggs should cost 25 cents and it was going to be the ruination of society.  Now, eggs cost 3 dollars and it is very concerning to me.  Eggs should just not cost that much.  We’re all going to starve.  But I don’t get why these young adults are not taking my concerns seriously : )

    #3737415
    obx hiker
    BPL Member

    @obxer

    ^^ and if your hair got more than about an inch long you were accused of trying to look like a Beatle.  Those were the days my friend….

    Jeffrey you can screen shot that character posted by Doug and then reduce it in size and use it for your avatar! Perfect.

    #3737416
    DWR D
    BPL Member

    @dwr-2

    “when I was a youngster I remember adults being worried rock and roll would ruin civilization. Yet it continued”

    Really???? You call this ‘civil… ization’ ?????????????

    #3737473
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    When we only think of our own use cases, and dismiss entirely certain technologies since they don’t fit into our narrow world, we miss various other uses for various other groups that might find that technology life-fulfilling.

    With the blink of an eye, anyone can play music

    #3737492
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

    Oh fer…yes, I hate children with disabilities and think we should outlaw wheelchairs and any technology that helps them. I’m narrow that way. Cruel.

    If I listed 10 reasons why AK 47’s should be banned, Doug would reply with a link to someone who opened several cans of beans with a machine gun and so saved his family from starving in a snow storm.

    I made a number of specific critiques of VR and focused on what it can and can’t do (i.e, “match or surpass reality”.) This is non controversial, or should be…

    I never called for VR etc, to be outlawed.

    I’ll add now that I think many people have a fantasy relationship with the whole idea of tech, and believe preposterous claims relating to it ( a co worker who thinks we now laser print 747’s whole right out of the warehouse, who also called me an old fuddy duddy when I questioned that.) (People who think it will be easy to colonize mars and breezily speak of ‘terraforming’.)

    But of course I applaud the countless applications of tech that make lives better, especially in medical applications.

    I’m narrow. Not according to Jenny Craig.

    #3737518
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    Seems I touched a nerve. My apologies, wasn’t my intent. I shouldn’t have used the word ‘narrow’, my bad.

    But to my larger point, the article (which you said earlier you didn’t read, not sure if you have since then) talks about VR far into the future, yet all of your critiques are about VR as it is now (and from your critiques I’m going to assume you don’t really know much about it). It’s still in its infancy, what it can become, like all tech in its infancy, is probably beyond what we might imagine. As far as sensory experiences to VR, that’s not really that big of a leap from where we are now.

    I’ve also said it doesn’t sound like a future I’d like, so I have no fantasy relationship to tech. I just found the article interesting, and thought some others might as well.

    And everyone knows that you don’t use an AK-47 to open several cans of beans. You use a Glock 19 instead. Much better control. The AK is for keeping others away from your beans.

    #3737526
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

    “touched a nerve”.  No, it’s just that..oh never mind.

    .well, this thread has caused The Matrix Resurrection pop-up ad to continuously show on my screen. Whoa!! as Keen-oh Reeves would say.

    #3737537
    Chris K
    BPL Member

    @cmkannen-2-2

    Great thread.

    Chalmers’ book comes out next week but the introduction and first chapter are available on his website:

    http://consc.net/reality+/excerpt.pdf

    #3737541
    Chris K
    BPL Member

    @cmkannen-2-2

    Strapping on a VR headset seems about as far as you can get from strapping on a backpack. Yet both are intentional acts of immersion.

    Both allow you to explore somewhere new and different or somewhere familiar. You can go solo or share the experience. Undoubtedly there is or will be the VR equivalent of gear to try, with a spectrum of approaches and philosophies to suit.

    VR doesn’t sound appealing but here we are, fully accustomed to having discussions through pieces of glass in real time around the planet.

    #3737621
    AK Granola
    BPL Member

    @granolagirlak

    Eggs are only $3 down there? $6.50 here in Fairbanks! Society is already ruined. But nature here is vast, and I’ll take it over cheap eggs.

    VR – it has plenty of practical uses, but like all technologies we humans will find ways to use it for our own inhumane ends. It just reflects our own nature, the good and the terrible, just like radio, TV, internet. It will never have the ability to do what nature does for us, if only we spend time in it to figure that out.

    It’s the shame of all of our modern societies that we did not include nature in the planning of all of our cities, in every neighborhood. Green spaces and trees should belong to all, along with paths to walk and places to sit and observe, green places for children to play without needing a built environment. Instead we have cities full of abandoned Kmarts, endless pavements, and the vapid emptiness of shopping as a way of life, as our meaning of life. Our social status and our economy depend on the worthless garbage we work so hard to acquire and throw away.

    I think Covid might have started to push people away from that empty life. People are quitting pointless and unsatisfying jobs that they worked just to have more money to buy more crap. No one ever found love or peace in all that stuff. Seeing so many people who have never hiked or camped before, suddenly show interest, is a wonderful thing. The barter system is ramping up as I have never seen it in my life (and I’ve always been a part of it); you can trade instead of buy. Money isn’t the point any longer. Yes, people are documenting it all on social media, which will help more people learn that life is about the beauty around us, and the communities we create, available for free. I am cautiously optimistic that eventually this may mean an increasing support for creating green spaces and preserving existing natural areas. Gotta hope so anyway!

    It’s the succeeding generations that will have to save us from ourselves.

     

    #3737631
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    eggs probably more expensive in Hawaii : )

    yeah, I have great hope for succeeding generations.  We have made things better in some ways, time for the next to take things to the next level

    #3738153
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

    Here’s an interesting article in the NYtimes about this very topic. I pasted on a reply from the comments section that articulates a few of my objections. In any case, note how Manjoo jumps into the “we’re PROBABLY in a simulation” belief camp based on very little reasoning. And yeah, the whole notion fails the Occam’s razor test big time. I find it interesting that many who scoff at the notion of God will jump enthusiastically into other unproveable world (cosmos)-views that are even more fantastical. (and no I don’t mean Doug or Wisner, who are more nuanced and sophisticated than that.) The release of another tedious Matrix film is no doubt to blame for much of this.

     

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/opinion/virtual-reality-simulation.html

    To me, this problem is insoluble because of the way the question is framed. The philosophical conundrum is this: If we were living in an advanced simulation where it was impossible to know the difference between a simulation and reality, how would we know? Well, by the framing of the question, we couldn’t because we have assumed such a thing is impossible. George Berkeley famously wrote a dialogue in which he proves there is no way for us to know anything unless we were in the mind of God. Descartes brought this kind of thinking to an end when he wrote, “I think, therefore I am” because it centers reality in rational thought and not in the provability of the existence of reality (hint: it’s not provable). Simulation theory seems to me to be a flawed version of Berkeley’s intense idealism, and a long standing philosophical debate on the nature of reality. My greatest problem with the simulation theory is that it fails to explain anything useful in philosophy. Berkeley’s idealism led to the thought of John Locke. Where does simulation theory go? What questions does it answer? How does it help us understand ourselves and our universe? I would argue it doesn’t do anything at all but add a layer of complexity or several layers, so no, we are probably NOT in a simulation, except in so far as we’ve been click baited to this article, no more than we are dreaming or we exist only in the mind of a higher conscious being.

    #3738195
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    I don’t know what ‘they’ mean when they say we are in a simulation. To me, a ‘simulation’ is a program running on a computer. All you get out are numbers, and those numbers are totally dependent on the input to the program.

    But then, I really doubt ‘they’ have any idea of what they mean either. Far too many completely undefined terms being thrown around. Garbage in, garbage out.

    Great fun for the academic philosophers, but of NO use or relevance to the rest of the world.

    Cheers

Viewing 21 posts - 26 through 46 (of 46 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
Forum Posting

A Membership is required to post in the forums. Login or become a member to post in the member forums!

Get the Newsletter

Get our free Handbook and Receive our weekly newsletter to see what's new at Backpacking Light!

Gear Research & Discovery Tools


Loading...