Using a quilt and cold!

Did you use the pad straps or close the quilt up top?

I posted this the other day ,comment from an 18th century Arctic expedition :

“When our stomachs were empty no matter how many blankets we used we were cold. Then when we found some food and fell asleep with full stomachs we slept warm“.

This may not apply but  when sleeping cold outdoor insufficient bottom insulation (R 3.2 should have worked…) and or not enough calories to burn are the two common causes.

You didn’t mention what kind of shelter you were using, a double wall tent or tarp? Even in a “fully enclosed” Zpacks style single wall shelter a slight breeze can get under the quilt and cause drafts. I typically tarp camp nowadays and I like to pair my Zpacks 30-degree quilt ( I only use it in quilt mode) with a lightweight bivy from Borah or MLD. Even with the net head, It adds a good amount of extra warmth and keeps the breeze from getting under my quilt.

Scott,

Folks are going to tell you the significant factors are the sleeping pad insulation, head insulation, feet insulation, and as Franco pointed out, burning some calories.  I have to tell you, at 40 degrees with what you described, I would have been sweating profusely and peeling clothes.

At 40 degrees, I really don’t even worry about pad insulation. I wish I had something better to offer. The only other thing would be to make sure you are properly cinching and tucking the quilt.  I use a tarp and a Borah bivy for ground and insect protection, which I’m sure adds a bit of insulation and wind protection, but that’s about it. I hope you get if figured out.

Happy trails – Russ

Possibly get sweaty earlier in the night and kick off the covers while sleeping?  then your sweat would have gotten really cold and maybe wetted stuff out?

Normally I’d argue pad R-value but with a 10F bag, you’d be able to compensate.  i sleep cold, but I’d be warm in that setup.

does seem weird. At that temperature wearing what you were a fairly light blanket should have kept you warm. Do you toss and turn a lot when you sleep?

<p style=”padding-left: 30px;”>I did use the straps per EE’s instructions</p>
i was in a Tarptent with doors open to keep condensation down

probably had a 800 calorie supper or so

i need to change something!

I am a side sleeper by necessity for sleep apnea…so I do move around a bit

If you’re a big guy, or broad shouldered, and a side sleeper – maybe you need an even wider quilt?

probably had a 800 calorie supper or so
What was your total intake for the day?  How far had you hiked?

Sleeping setups are comprised of multiple items and it is difficult to compensate for an inadequacy in one item by going overboard on another.

I tend to agree with Scott about the pad being adequate … would be for me … but I know others who get cold at a little below 40 with similar pad insulation and sleeping bags supposedly rated for 10F.  Different base metabolic rates for different folks.

I’d consider head insulation to be the prime suspect here.  I’ve been exclusively using quilts for 10+ years and always use balaclavas for head warmth (thin smart wool always plus either a fleece one or one insulated with 6osy PL1) twice early on I decided that it seemed warm enough to use only the thin smart wool … both times I woke up chilled after a couple hours but quickly warmed up after adding more head insulation.  I have not been tempted to repeat the experiment since.

just a thought…

That R3.2 of the S2S mat is at full inflation.

Any less than that the insulation value drops.

I’m a newbie to quilts but so far I would need to use a quilt at least 20 degrees warmer than the rating. So for me my 40F quilt is only good to 60F, I sleep colder than most tho by 10 degrees, partly physiology partly age

Agree with Russ.

I kind of wonder if the sleep apnea could play a role in this?  If it’s somewhat severe, then couldn’t that decrease oxygen levels a bit, and if so, then maybe that could effect the metabolic rate somewhat?  Conversely, one of the ways to warm the body is to hyper ventilate and/or deep in breathing. Wim Hof uses and teaches this, among other methods, to help warm the body when exposed to extreme cold.

In any case, I’ve used quilts around 0*F and slightly below. It’s doable, but now I prefer a fabric sleeve on the bottom made out of a highly wind resistant, UL material.  A bivy would accomplish similar, but at higher weight. I’ve also have a little experience with using a very light sleeping bag in combo with a much warmer quilt on top (something I plan to test more this coming winter).

Good ideas!

I’m debating between making changes so that this system works or going with a sleeping bag

to make it work, I’m thinking about a MYOG sleeve that goes around the outside of me the quilt and the bag to reduce drafts…but I’d have to be careful not to reduce the loft

i also thought of using a liner..but those are 5-6 oz…not trivial

LOL, not a big guy- 5”9″ ; 165 lbs..,but I do pull my knees up when sleeping…so am thinking about getting a wider pad…unfortunately I can’t seem to find a wide, short pad with decent R-value

I have an Exped Synmat UL7 which has an R value similar to yours, and I start feeling the cold seeping through that pad when the temps are in the low 40’s…so that’s about the point that I switch to a warmer pad.

You might have to try eliminating one variable at a time…Your quilt should be more than warm enough at those temps.

On an evening with similar temps, you could try a warmer pad with the quilt unattached to the pad.  Still cold?  Attach the quilt to the pad so you eliminate drafts (assuming your quilt is properly sized).  Still cold? Eat something and maybe even have a hot drink.

I remember a couple of years ago it was 5f one evening and I was a little cold so got up and ate this giant Whole Foods gluten free cupcake…it felt like it weighed about 5 pounds, but I polished it off and washed it down with some water…my body felt like a furnace after I polished that thing off…it was pretty tasty too!

Another thought – maybe the quilt is too wide? Wider quilt give you more moving-around room but also more empty space for your body to heat. I’m a toss-and-turn side sleeper and for my first quilt I got a wide but found I really didn’t need the extra width and since have been more comfortable in a regular-width quilt.

I can be a pretty cold sleeper but unless it’s in the 30s/40s I can’t even have my 20 degree EE quilt touch me without overheating. Most people here are perplexed because if we were using it right, we’d all personally be quite warm, likely too hot in a 10 degree quilt @ 40 degrees.

When you’re cold in a quilt in most of the situations mentioned here, you’ll know that part of you isn’t insulated well. If your foot box is an issue, you’ll have cold feet/legs, if you’re not wearing the right head gear, when you get into the 30s you’re going to start to feel it, but your core overall should be warm. I’d be willing to place money that even though some of these could be a problem for you that you’re also just not creating the seals that are completely and entirely necessary to sleeping warm under a quilt once the temp starts to approach freezing. You can’t troubleshoot anything else until you fix this and if this were Vegas and I could bet, I’d move my entire pot into new user error.

In my book you’d have to be in some serious caloric shock to feel cold at 40 degrees under a 10 degree EE quilt or have some kind of fever/chill situation going on. You have a quality quilt, so don’t be concerned there. I’ve met people who just can’t use quilts, and I can’t say I don’t understand where they’re coming from. If you wake up 10 times in a night to adjust for temperature, you’re not doing yourself any favor in weight savings in my mind.

Obviously test this stuff out at home if you can, you don’t want to find out a quilt doesn’t work for you in 15 degree cold. Focus on the straps, tighten them up, make sure you’re sealed. I also do this which I find helps, it’s a pic of a body on a pad with a quilt over it before we all start to take an ink blot test:

<double post>

EE Enigma wide 10 degrees

sleeping pad was S2S ultralight insulated…R=3.2

fleece cap, REI 850 FP down jacket, thin silk base layer

Temps in  40s and I was quite cold

Something is not adding up.  Even with the quilt half-off your body you still should’ve been quite warm.  I’m guessing that since you took a 10˚ F bag out on a 40˚ F+ night and wore a down sweater, silk jammies, and fleece cap the culprit is likely mental.  I mean, you seem a little too concerned about being cold…

Then again, it could be a medical issue since you mention sleep apnea and tossing and turning throughout the night.  I am not a doctor, but perhaps you have undiagnosed diabetes?

I would try a CCF pad on top of your pad as a cheap way to see if you need more ground insulation. I think many people go too light on ground insulation. I use a 4.9 pad year round.  I slept toasty warm last night in the low 40s with a 20 F Nunatak quilt (same down as a 10 F EE) wearing light thermals.

If I was planning on 20s I would bring a warmer pad, down balaclava and wear my down jacket.

I would certainly look to the pad. The difference can be remarkable. With an exped synmat I tend to be just warm enough, even in pretty mild weather. With the downmat it’s like sleeping on a radiator.

Has anyone here ever had a problem with any pad at 40 degrees though? I see what everyone is saying here and just look at the temp of 40F and think of how stressed I would be about being too hot in my 20 EE quilt, but being too cold out of it. I’m certainly not stressing about higher R value pads or if my quilt might be too wide.

I am very cold blooded and have noticed that on a 44-50-degree night I am noticeably warmer on a R 5.7 pad (Thermarest XTherm) than a 4.5-ish pad (Big Agnes Q-Core SLX insulated).  I know I would feel the coolness of the ground if the temperature were 40 degrees and all I had was a R 3.2 pad.  So you are not alone here.  I also think your 10-degree quilt will be fine if you do this:  reduce drafts from turning over a lot by adding 3 more attachments to your quilt, spaced in the gaps between the existing straps.  You can design it so you run elastic from one new loop to the opposite side, directly under your back, or you can instead run the elastic completely around the pad and put large-hole buttons or toggles on each side on top, and attach the new loops to the buttons or toggles.  See the pictures at the far bottom of this thread: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/100460/

A warmer pad, cinching the neck tightly, and adding some lightweight loops and elastic straps will make a big difference.  The quilt is quite nice on a warmer night and in a hostel, so it’s worth trying to make it work on a colder night.