Training thread. Goals, updates, questions, etc.

[Kattt]

While I got your attention….BJC, both you and Mike mentioned the whey protein after a workout. Is there a reason I should not have it at 5:30 am, then work, then run at 9:30 or 10? I have been making my drink for breakfast and after I run I usually eat a bit of oatmeal. Thoughts?

thank you!

[Mike M]

I like to drink my protein smoothie as near to after my workout as possible-15-30 minutes is close to optimum to reload glycogen and start the muscle repair process.  Studies show that a 3 or 4:1 ratio of carbohydrates to protein is ideal for this.  Interestingly several studies have shown that chocolate milk was nearly as effective as many expensive recovery drinks (it’s roughly a 3:1 ratio) :)

[bjc]

Research has suggested significant benefits of consuming protein and carbohydrates soon after a workout. A number of my runners would always be chugging chocolate milk after their workouts, with my blessing (within limits).  But while that may be optimal, I see nothing wrong with consuming your drink at breakfast time. My wife usually consumes hers then and I often do.  I wouldn’t worry too much about when you consume it.  But I think consuming some type of carbohydrate/protein combo after a particularly intense workout is a good idea. It can help your recovery.

[Kattt]

Thanks Mike and BJC. You are helping me consistently. I really appreciate it :)

[Taiga]

Another company that has good protein is Truenutrition.com They’re the only company I know of that will actually get their supplements tested by a third party and post the results, so you can actually know what is in them. The supplement industry is like the wild west, there is really no regulation. You can also customize your order. I used to do a 50/50 mix of the complete milk dairy isolate and the whey isolate. Since I’ve stopped consuming dairy I now use this one: https://truenutrition.com/p-1169-vegan-protein-optimizer-formula-1lb.aspx it’s comparable or better than whey.

I’m guessing people here are familiar with this site, but if not it’s a great resource: http://www.examine.com

We were frustrated.

There was no place we could turn to in order to get unbiased information on supplements. Sure, there was Wikipedia, but it wasn’t getting deep into the science.

Everyone else? Had an agenda. Supplement companies misrepresenting science. Media sensationalizing headlines. Companies and individuals pushing unneeded supplements and other products onto you.

That’s why Examine.com started in 2011. Fully independent from the start, we’ve never sold any supplements. Or done any coaching or consulting. Or any kind of advertising or sponsorship.

Our goal from day 1 has always been: read the research, make sense of it, and put it online. We’re an education company that looks at the research — nothing more, nothing less.

[BC Bob]

Stuart Phillips at McMaster University does some good research on protein & exercise.  This is a recent decent journal overview of the research including sections on…

– Protein nutrition in the aging population
– Timing of protein consumption
– Optimal protein intakes for athletes
– Meal planning for athletes
– Take-home points

Protein “requirements” beyond the RDA: implications for optimizing health
Stuart M. Phillips, Stéphanie Chevalier, Heather J. Leid
Journal of Applied Physiology, Nutrition, and Metabolism
Published on the web 9 February 2016.

—————————————–

For good reads on strength training, I would highly recommend the following…

Body by Science: A Research Based Program for Strength Training, Body building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week Paperback – January 1, 2009
by Doug McGuff & John Little.

as well as the excellent overview (pdf) journal article in Medicina Sportiva, 2011.

EVIDENCE-BASED RESISTANCE TRAINING RECOMMENDATIONS
James Fisher, James Steele, Stewart Bruce-Low, Dave Smith

Edit:  My takeaway on resistance training: 5-6 exercises, one set, once a week, push/pull to failure in 60-90 seconds, done slowly to minimize injury is sufficient.

[Anonymous]

Protein “requirements” beyond the RDA: implications for optimizing health

 

A very informative article.  Thank you, Bob!

[Kattt]

Thanks Bob,

I look forward to reading that this evening.

[Anonymous]

” Interestingly several studies have shown that chocolate milk was nearly as effective as many expensive recovery drinks (it’s roughly a 3:1 ratio) :)”

+1  It is my post hike standard practice immediately after getting back to TH.  It isn’t the recomended 4:1, but close enough for gummint work and way cheaper than a Hammer or First Endurance product.

You can also mix your own from whey protein and maltodextrin, if you want to fine tune the drink.  That is what I do for backpacking trips, and it seems to work very well, based on 8 years of accumulated experience so far.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BC Bob]

Not that every study agrees with this, but here is some research on chocolate milk and timing of protein ingestion….

Daily chocolate milk consumption does not enhance the effect of resistance training in young and old men: a randomized controlled trial
Cameron J. Mitchell, Sara Y. Oikawa, Dan I. Ogborn, Nicholas J. Nates, Lauren G. MacNeil, Mark Tarnopolsky, and Stuart M. Phillips
NRC Research Press, 2014.

“….Because older men are resistant to anabolic stimuli such as resistance exercise (Kumar et al. 2009) and protein provision (Cuthbertson et al. 2005), it seems likely that an even greater dose of milk or protein would be required to detect and ergogenic effect in older men (Moore et al. 2014)…. In fact, 40 g of high-quality protein has been shown to result in greater MPS after RT in older men compared with 20 g (Yang et al. 2012). To achieve such an intake, older men would have to consume the 1.4 L of chocolate milk required to provide the 40 g of protein necessary to induce greater MPS and considering that this amount of chocolate milk would contain 75 g of sugar….”

————————————————————————-

Supplemental Protein in Support of Muscle Mass and Health: Advantage Whey
Michaela C. Devries and Stuart M. Phillips
Vol. 80, S1, 2015, Journal of Food Science

On timing…..

“…. In fact, while a recent meta-analysis showed that protein consumed during the so-called “anabolic window” resulted in greater muscle hypertrophy following a period of resistance training, when adjusted for total daily protein intake the effect of protein timing on muscle hypertrophy disappeared (Schoenfeld and others 2013). In addition, timing of protein intake did not result in greater strength gains following resistance training (Schoenfeld and others 2013). As such it seems as if absolute daily protein intake, not timing of protein intake, is the greatest predictor of muscle hypertrophy following resistance exercise. However, an important consideration is that adequate protein is consumed during the day to allow for maximal muscle hypertrophy, which would more than likely naturally result in consumption of protein in the hours before and/or after a resistance exercise bout….”

(my bolding)

[BC Bob]

I tend to rely more on research in peer-reviewed journals, but this Toronto Globe & Mail article from last year was pretty good.  At least it references some of the research….

Leslie Beck: How do I lose weight but maintain – and gain – muscle?
Special to The Globe and Mail
Published Sunday, Jun. 26, 2016 6:00AM EDT

Question

I’m a 40-year-old male who needs to lose 20 pounds. I’ve cut my calorie intake and I am working out five days a week – a mix of cardio and free weights. How much protein do I need to eat to maintain muscle – even gain a little – while I lose body fat?

[bjc]

“In fact, 40 g of high-quality protein has been shown to result in greater MPS after RT in older men compared with 20 g (Yang et al. 2012). To achieve such an intake, older men would have to consume the 1.4 L of chocolate milk required to provide the 40 g of protein necessary to induce greater MPS and considering that this amount of chocolate milk would contain 75 g of sugar….”

I had to laugh when I read this. I get the implication, but at the end of a a long week on the trail, 1.4L of chocolate milk is nothing!

[Mike M]

I think the chocolate milk recommendation might be more for glycogen restoration than muscle development

I think I will start putting two scoops of whey in my smoothies vs one though :)

[Anonymous]

“To achieve such an intake, older men would have to consume the 1.4 L of chocolate milk required to provide the 40 g of protein necessary to induce greater MPS and considering that this amount of chocolate milk would contain 75 g of sugar….”

I don’t think a post exercise “recovery drink” is intended to be the whole answer.  My understanding is that it is meant to get the process started during that 1/2 hour window when the muscle cells are more receptive to glucose and the amino acids necessary to begin the glycogen replenishment and anabolic processes, and that additional protein and carbs should be supplied from more varied, wholesome sources within a couple of hours.  At least that is my routine.  As mentioned earlier, upon finishing a training hike I drink a pint of chocolate milk, which supplies 48 grams of carbs in the form of lactose and sucrose, and 16 grams of high quality milk protein.  About an hour later, I am eating a nice plate of oven roasted potatoes, accompanied by a glass of Kefir and some mixed nuts, which bumps the total post workout protein up to 30+ grams depending on how many nuts I snarf down.  That and a solid dinner have resulted in being sufficiently recovered to do weight work the following day, and no significant loss of muscle mass that I can detect, at least not enough to keep me from doing year round training and Sierra hikes that typically involve around 6000′ of elevation gain the first day.

“I think the chocolate milk recommendation might be more for glycogen restoration than muscle development”

I would say both, but weighted in favor of glycogen replenishment.  16 grams of high quality protein is not an insignificant amount  to jump start the recovery process.  The key, IMO/E is to follow it shortly with another dose of high quality protein.  I’m a big fan of whey powder for my backpacking food, not so much at home where other high quality sources are readily available.

 

[Mike M]

hmmmm- you’ve got me thinking- dangerous! :)

I have a big jug of Recoverite (mix with water) home, I should bag up a couple of portions for the Bob Open to drink when I hit camp at night (supper is eaten along the trail somewhere) it certainly couldn’t hurt and any potential recovery seen would be a godsend

[Kattt]

This is great!

Now I am glad I asked what seemed like a bit of a silly question.

Thanks for participating here Bob.

I realize of course that I am not engaging in the type of high level activity described in some of the writing above, but this still helps me understand and scale it down to my needs.

[Anonymous]

“I should bag up a couple of portions for the Bob Open to drink when I hit camp at night (supper is eaten along the trail somewhere) it certainly couldn’t hurt and any potential recovery seen would be a godsend”

Every little bit helps, Mike, especially for a multi day event like The Bob.  If it staves off the inevitable decline by even a little bit, you’ll be ahead of the game.  As long as you’re living dangerously by thinking, let me toss another idea out there:  ;0)  When you’re starting to wear down a little toward the end of those long days, 2-3 ounces of maltodextrin, or a packet of Perpetuem, mixed with 10-12 ounces of water will give you a quick energy boost.  If you’re not too weight constrained, it is good insurance.   It has made a noticeable difference for me in that kind of situation.

 

 

[Mike M]

I happen to have a big jug of Perpetuem too :)

I will say that my sit down, cook supper along the trail has really been beneficial. It’s by far the longest break I take all day; it comes at time when I am wearing down, I choose a pretty place and the big calorie dump helps.

[Anonymous]

“it comes at time when I am wearing down, I choose a pretty place and the big calorie dump helps.”

I’ve never tried that.  Do you find it hard to get up and hike again afterward?

[Mike M]

Not really.  I usually feel more refreshed, probably because rests come so infrequently (I do stop for a lunch break, but it’s usually rather short).  The other advantages are no cooking at camp spot (grizzly country) and trying to cook something and eat something at 10 PM (or even later if pushing into the dark) when you’re ready to sleep, just doesn’t work that well.  Pitch a shelter, roll out a quilt and get some well earned sleep :)

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Mike.  Now you’ve got me living dangerously.  :0)

[BlackHatGuy]

““it comes at time when I am wearing down, I choose a pretty place and the big calorie dump helps.”

I’ve never tried that.  Do you find it hard to get up and hike again afterward?”

I find a big dump helps here too….

[Mike M]

that’s approximately two miles past where I eat supper :)

[Kattt]

9.2 miles today. Bluffs, sand dunes, beach….with a mostly unfavorable strong wind. Felt great!

[bjc]

Kat,

Good for you!!

BJ

 

[Author]

Posts