Trail Designs copies Starlyte with new Kojin Stove

[Steve B]

And that was an excellent pun.

This thread just spiked my interest in alcohol stoves so I ordered one.  Not telling which.

[Adam Kilpatrick]

I’ve also had my 12-10 stoves melt/disfigure like the one that Zelph posted in my bigger CDs. There you go, good to learn why :-)

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

We need a side by side Kojin vs Starlyte comparison to see which one burns less fuel.

[BlackHatGuy]

“This thread just spiked my interest in alcohol stoves so I ordered one. Not telling which.”

I don’t have an interest in stoves, so I just ordered the alcohol itself. Single malt makes a good fuel, right?

[Troels L]

I have been off for a day or two…

Thanks Dan for the explanation/instructions and your own initiave to refund the money (just based on my name and your order history). The stove is fixed so I will try to return the small money with a Donation ;)

[Mole J]

Dan D

If you look at the link I posted on page 1 of this thread ( https://whiteburnswanderings.wordpress.com/2016/04/13/another-myo-stove/)

These type stoves all have similar efficiency.

We’ve used both

The cosmetic tin/ceramic insulation type stove like the Kojin is nothing new and has been used in Speedsterstoves.co.uk and in  MYOG form and  for several years by many backpackers.

We’ve used both, but prefer the Starlyte with it’s snap on lid, but unfortunately those green lids rarely last a season before breaking  in some manner.

As I mentioned before, the durability of these tins is compromised by the threads after some use. They end up grinding and snagging. But they are cheap and work well.

Maybe the Kojin green colour will stop the snagging? ;)

 

 

[Stormin]

Nothing like it Kevin B. You have no idea what my stove build comprises of, nor does it resemble the Starlyte in form and function.

[Ken Thompson]

Similar enough?

Edit: Don’t try to gaslight people by purposely showing them a different stove than the one being discussed Norman.

[Stormin]

[DAN-Y]

I communicated to TD about the change over of containers.

At the same time I was purchasing cones from them for special kit offered here on BPL.

At the same time I found a section at TD’s site that listed the Starlyte as a “stand alone” item. Anyone could purchase it by it’s self, no kit required. It was in a section described as “items you may also be interested in” Selling the Starlyte in this manner was a violation of our agreement. The Starlyte was to be sold with kits only. I confronted TD about it, emails were exchanged. The content of the emails caused me to think twice about continuing to provide a product. I waited to receive my order of cones and after that, I never returned. It’s all about Integrity. Sad, but true.

They could have taken the high road and reverted back to the way things were before Dan Durston and I created the 550 kit. They did just fine with the 12-10 stove. I’m just a little guy making these stoves in my garage.

That was the “rest of the story”

 

[Gary Dunckel]

“Where as the Stormin “Starlyte-like” stoves seem like an exact copy of the Zelph Starlytes in form and function.”

Not at all, Kevin – I am the proud owner of one of Stormin’s unique stoves, and it is of a quite different design than Dan’s original Starlyte (which I also bought one of recently). In side by side tests with my clone cone, they both performed roughly the same, by which I mean rather excellently. These two guys know how to make good stoves.

[Stormin]

Ken, I see no wedding favor tin, no partial covering of the burner surface, the mesh surface of my stove is domed, to accept my own purpose built simmer rings. No glue involved.

[Kevin B]

I see Stormin’s made some design changes since the time he first ventured into this forum.  I like the domed lid version, and will likely order one.

Any testing or reports of usage at elevations of 7,000 to 11,000′?

Glad the thread is still open!

[Kevin B]

Thread drift:

Stormin’ order placed.  I’m still confused about which stove version I will receive here in the US.  I believe the pictures posted above are the UK version.  The “Stormin Ti Stove Systems” web page still has the following text:

“I cannot offer this System for sale to the USA in the alcohol setup pictured, adaptations will be made to satisfy US patent laws. Modifications as with my aluminium cones, will be adopted to suit these needs. Details will be explained upon enquiry.”

Looking forward to receiving the next burner in my everclear quiver! (Edit to add: I really want the domed mesh version, not the stove with the open top with holes around the perimeter)

[Stormin]

Order confirmed Kevin B.Mesh covered Stormin stove.

The caveat on the web page only concerns certain cones, not all.

[Bridget S]

“Not at all, Kevin – I am the proud owner of one of Stormin’s unique stoves, and it is of a quite different design than Dan’s original Starlyte (which I also bought one of recently). In side by side tests with my clone cone, they both performed roughly the same, by which I mean rather excellently. These two guys know how to make good stoves”

Thanks for keeping it positive Gary. I think that there are lots of great burner/stove options out there and each meets different people’s needs at any given time. As always, copying is to be expected in business and that works great for all of us because the “copy” sometimes provides things the original didn’t.

Not that the original is bad or the copy is bad–each just meets the needs of some people and not for others. The Chinese version of the Trangia meets the needs of people who don’t have a lot of money to spend on gear. The Trangia meets the needs of people who are looking for quality and long history of a company backed by experience.

[Stormin]

Dan, I can understand your grievance. You were exploited until they came up with a solution to suit their own agenda, then they dropped you like a hot tamale. I have been harrassed by their patent lawyers, but they are up against a brick wall.Your stoves have more credence than their offerings,which are not patentable. Keep up the good work.

 

[DAN-Y]

They copied my burner design developed for the 2×2 stove. It was posted on my bplite website back in the year Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:43 pm
http://bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41&sid=9521bc360a526227924130768e2748f4

Posted on Whiteblaze.net 08-13-2006, 10:11

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/16714-2-X-2-Alcohol-Stove?highlight=2×2+alcohol+stove

Shall I go into production, I wont be infringing on anyone’s design? Sure, I’ll manufacture some. Look for them this spring! I sold them on ebay back then in 2006. Read about it in the above whiteblaze thread.

 

[Dean F.]

Ok, I haven’t even finished the first page of this thread.  But I will just point out that Zelph did NOT invent batting-filled alcohol stoves.  He did not “innovate” anything that way- he just produced an excellent-quality version with decent options at a good price-point, and kudos to him!  But TD is not “copying” the Starlyte.  What happened was, yes, the community of UL geeks like us pointed out the advantages of the batten-filled stoves when used with TD’s cones.  (I did my own tests alongside Dan, and posted them.)  For a while, Zelph’s Starlyte was the community’s darling, so it got adapted.  Now, TD has bowed to the pressure, acknowledges these advantages over their in-house 12-10 stove, and introduced a batting-filled stove.

End.

That’s it.  That’s the true storyline.  This new stove is not even nearly a “copy” of the Starlyte.  Heck, it looks like a repurposed shoe-polish container.  And I’m a guy who is usually pretty damned harsh with copycats.  I hate Solo stoves, and couldn’t even stand that guy who copied someone’s chimney kettle design.  But this does NOT tweak my radar.

Dan, saying that “combining a batten stove with a lid and a low stack height” is what you’re talking about is really reaching.  We all know how much you adore the Starlyte (for good reason- it’s a great stove, and I own two) and that you and Dan are buddies.

[Mario Caceres]

Alcohol stoves and conic windscreens have been around for a very long time,   Here a link with conic windscreens going back over a hundred years back.

Edit. Not sure why the link given above does not work. Just type “zenstoves.net/PotStands-Conical.htm#ConeStands” in your browser instead.

[Roger Caffin]

Mario and Zen
The security certificate for that web site is invalid.

Cheers

[Link .]

. Stove face-off: Kojin, StarLyte, 12-10 & Supalite || Boil times & efficiency .

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

^ As Link has provided, Skurka compared the Kojin and restricted Starlyte. Great stuff.

In short, the restricted Starlyte uses less fuel, the Kojin is faster. Most likely a regular Starlyte would be intermediate between these two, with a little better fuel economy than the Kojin but a bit slower.

[DAN-Y]

Dan D is correct, according to Skurka:

Modified StarLyte vs. Kojin
When tested under identical conditions, the Zelph Modified StarLyte used 18 percent less fuel than the Trail Designs Kojin to achieve a rolling boil. On a 5-day/4-night trip with eight 12-oz meals (four coffees + four dinners), the StarLyte would use 0.5 oz (15 g) less fuel.

 

Also keep in mind that Skurka gets kickbacks from the select folks that he does reviews for. A quote from his Kojin review:

Disclosure. This website is supported mostly through affiliate marketing, whereby for referral traffic I receive a small commission from select vendors, at no cost to the reader. This post contains affiliate links. Thanks for your support.

 

[Nick Gatel]

Except for Dean F’s excellent post, this thread is full of misinformation and what I consider improper accusations. I have done business with both TD and Dan Y and have no complaints with either company. But let’s start with Dan Y’s last post:

Also keep in mind that Skurka gets kickbacks from the select folks that he does reviews for. A quote from his Kojin review:

Disclosure. This website is supported mostly through affiliate marketing, whereby for referral traffic I receive a small commission from select vendors, at no cost to the reader. This post contains affiliate links. Thanks for your support.

Dan, did you test the links? There is NO affiliate link to Trail Designs. There is an Amazon affiliate text link for the Evernew 900 ml pot and a Google Adsense text and image link that showed a Kovea stove (Adsense links can change). Your inference is typical of all the crap being thrown around in this thread.

Also, I’d challenge Andrew’s testing (he does mention the results might be different for larger volume boils). Andrew tested only 12 ounce boils. Many people boil much more… most Mountain House 2-person meals require 16 ounces and people often boil additional water for a hot drink at the same time. Typically I boil 32 ounces of water for my Mountain House meals plus 16 ounces for coffee or hot chocolate at the same time. While my meal sits for 8-10 minutes I drink my beverages. I suspect many, many people do the same thing.

I bought my first TD cone system in 2008. Over the years I have bought a few other systems to match different pots. The only stove I have used is the TD 12-10 and I always follow the instructions and never have had a problem with the stove becoming damaged as some of the pictures posted earlier. I don’t know how many meals I have cooked in the past 10 years using the 12-10, but it is hundreds of meals if not more. I purchased my last TD kit two years ago. At the time I think the Modified Starlyte stove was offered by TD (I may be wrong), but I have been extremely happy with the 12-10 over the past 10 years and got that one.

Relating to the negative comments thrown out about TD patents. Sorry, US patents and copyrights were established in Section 8 of the US Constitution, which was ratified in 1788. Smart people patent their ideas. Not all submitted ideas receive a patent.

Over the years I have a few email interactions with Rand and contacted him about this thread. Rand, upon getting my promise of confidentiality, sent me all the emails regarding the controversies here. What has been posted here about the two companies is completely inaccurate, aside from Rand’s gentlemanly two posts. Disclosure: I have paid full retail for everything I have purchased from TD in the past, and there is no incentive for me to defend TD, other than I am a happy and loyal customer of TD because they provide superb customer service and a quality product. My intention is seek the truth.

We may want to consider that those criticizing TD may have been benefitting financially by using the TD Cones or TD designs to sell their own products.

If any of the other alcohol stoves fit your needs, go ahead and buy one. But be objective and don’t slander other companies or people.

 

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