ToddTex Question…

Bumping this for the Monday morning crowd…

I don’t see the problem with putting talc on seamgrip after it’s dried.  Applying the seamgrip and letting it dry over night is more difficult.  It takes 1 extra minute to put on the talc.

I use any powdery stuff handy – flour, dirt, scrape off the edge of some drywall,…

I don’t see the problem with putting talc on seamgrip after it’s dried.

I’m trying to avoid powdery-white seams all over a $900 tent, which is just an aesthetic annoyance for me.  Functionally it’s not an issue and I can leave the tent undisturbed for weeks, if need be, if that’ll help the Seam Grip cure without having to dust it…but I’m not sure that the stuff ever cures.  I can cut it with toluene and hopefully it’ll sink in and not be as noticeable as usual, but if there’s another product that’ll work better, I’m all ears.

yeah.  and the seam grip leaves an uneven seam

wouldn’t tape work?  That would leave a nicer looking seam on a $900 tent

The insides are taped, fully; the instructions demand additional sealing on all exterior stitching.  I tested the Permatex method – small bead, stipple it into the stitching – on an older nylon stuff sack, but it didn’t work at all; peeled right off…so evidently the fabric was too old or dirty or something.  I should probably go buy a brand new sack and sacrifice it to testing, now that I’ve had the idea.  Maybe I’ll have better luck with thinned Seam Grip; I have an entire gallon of toluene, so I can thin it as much as I want…

Also, the objection to the talc isn’t really about it being on a $900 tent; I don’t even want to do that on a $100 tent.  I want something that dries fully and doesn’t require doctoring after the fact.

permatex and other silicone sealants only work on silicone treated fabric.  Yeah, they peel right off.

be careful with toluene.  That is nasty stuff.  Outdoors.  Stay up wind…  As I’m sure you and everyone is aware : )

I don’t understand your feelings about seamgrip curing.  If the last step is to put talc on it, so be it.  Actually, that’s the second to last step.  The last step is to wipe it off with wet cloth so you don’t see it.  Hmmm… maybe the talc is an unnecessary step, just a wet cloth would work.

permatex and other silicone sealants only work on silicone treated fabric. Yeah, they peel right off.

That’s why I wanted to know if the outer layer on ToddTex is silnylon; if so, I can mix up something that’ll actually work.  Maybe thin some silicone 3:1 with mineral spirits, or something.

be careful with toluene. That is nasty stuff. Outdoors. Stay up wind… As I’m sure you and everyone is aware : )

Yep.  Didn’t want to work on it indoors at all, but I have a large space with good ventilation.  Regardless, I’ll still probably end up remembering concerts that I’ve never been to.

I don’t understand your feelings about seamgrip curing. If the last step is to put talc on it, so be it. Actually, that’s the second to last step. The last step is to wipe it off with wet cloth so you don’t see it. Hmmm… maybe the talc is an unnecessary step, just a wet cloth would work.

I’m irritated because it’s a workaround; the cured surface basically remains tacky until it’s dirty enough to no longer stick to things, so we short that process by applying a layer of something that dirties the surface.  That’s…well, let’s just say that it’s suboptimal.  Also, I’ve not heard of wiping off the excess; it doesn’t seem like that would/should be possible…and I’ve seen plenty of chalky-white SG repair lines that are decades old.  It honestly bothers me, and admittedly for aesthetic reasons…but so much so that I even thought about using permanent yellow and black chalk just to prevent the milky seams via color-matching.  Or just dying the mixture with ceramic pigment and applying it that way…but that still leaves a tacky surface.

All this being said, I think I’m going to have to use Seam Grip…so now I’m waiting to hear from Black Diamond to see if they have any input on the surface fabric or the act of thinning the Seam Grip with toluene.  However, I’ve been waiting for that email for a week, now…soooooooooo… 🤷‍♂️

just to be clear, I apply seamgrip, let it cure overnight, put on powdery stuff, wipe that off with a wet cloth because I don’t like powdery looking seams.

Hmmm… I think we’re saying the same thing.

I think we are, too.  Also, can you post an image of one of those finished and sealed seams?  One that’s been wiped clean?  I would like to see your results.

And you dusted that in talc?  I’ve never seen one that clean on the surface.

I dusted it with scraped off drywall powder.  It was all white.  Then I wiped it off with wet cloth.

My next experiment will be to skip the white powder and go directly to wiping with wet cloth.

Once, I didn’t dust it.  After it cured, two places touched and then wouldn’t release.  With enough force, the seamgrip came off of the fabric on one side.

“Black Diamond says to use Seam Grip on it, but I’m trying to avoid the inevitable tackiness of that product without throwing a bunch of talc on the seams after they’re sealed.”

First a couple of links:

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/camping-and-hiking/4-season-tent/black-diamond-ahwahnee

https://www.trailspace.com/gear/black-diamond/ahwahnee/

Second:  I tested Seam Grip years ago, and it was by far the best sealer for urethane coated fabric, plus it has lasted for many years.  It is now made by Gear Aid.  Maybe you need to buy newer sealer (they all cure eventually in the tube or bottle) and/or apply much thinner coats.  Granger’s in the UK makes great sealers if you want to look elsewhere.  Also, Gear Aid makes a product called “Seam Grip + TF” in a bottle with an applier made of foam that might work.  I used it fresh on some thinly coated paraglider fabric and it cured fully dry (not tacky), but it also diminished the tear strength of the very thin fabric when coated on both sides.

Third:  The reviews aren’t very encouraging, and AFAIK REI has dropped this tent.  The tent is much heavier than many other 2P tents, is difficult to set up, and in a torrential downpour, I can’t see how one could get in and out without soaking the floor.  The whole reason for carrying a tent on the heavy side is to have one designed and ready for unexpected severe weather.

If you can handle the extra weight, REI does appear to still carry an extended vestibule that might make the tent suitable for severe storms, and it may also be available from Black Diamond:

https://www.rei.com/product/152704/black-diamond-ahwahnee-tent-vestibule

REI says that it is silpoly, so would require a sil sealer, but it is probably seam sealed already.  Hope Black Diamond is steering you straight by recommending a Urethane sealer.

This is the first time I’ve ever been stumped with an issue with a supposedly high end product,  and my longstanding high regard for Black Diamond is gone.  I’m very sorry to not be able to suggest a better fix.

Seems to be ripstop nylon:

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/whats-science-behind-single-wall-tent-fabrics/

Thanks for the detailed reply, Sam!

First a couple of links: …

I found the Awhanee reviews to be a bit curious; I guess the double doors really ventilate it well, but I’m not sure why it’s six points lower in the OGL review than the Eldorado, and why it’s not even included in the Best of 2022 lineup.  I’m always a bit confused by that site, but the information is usually pretty good.

Second:  I tested Seam Grip years ago, and it was by far the best sealer for urethane coated fabric, plus it has lasted for many years.  It is now made by Gear Aid.  Maybe you need to buy newer sealer (they all cure eventually in the tube or bottle) and/or apply much thinner coats.  Granger’s in the UK makes great sealers if you want to look elsewhere.  Also, Gear Aid makes a product called “Seam Grip + TF” in a bottle with an applier made of foam that might work.  I used it fresh on some thinly coated paraglider fabric and it cured fully dry (not tacky), but it also diminished the tear strength of the very thin fabric when coated on both sides.

I haven’t started messing with the Seam Grip yet, but the Permatex was a brand new package…but seeing as I still don’t really know if I’m dealing with silnylon or another type of coating, I may have to just rely on doing the best I can with Seam Grip.  I’ve been looking up thinning recipes and I see more than a few; I’ll give Gear Aid a shout to see if they have a specific thinning procedure, other than the “use toluene” that they have on the website.  And hopefully BD will get back to me.

Third:  The reviews aren’t very encouraging, and AFAIK REI has dropped this tent.  The tent is much heavier than many other 2P tents, is difficult to set up, and in a torrential downpour, I can’t see how one could get in and out without soaking the floor.  The whole reason for carrying a tent on the heavy side is to have one designed and ready for unexpected severe weather.

Really?  Most of the reviews that I’ve seen are pretty good…and I don’t understand the pitching difficulties that most people have.  I took my time the first time, a few days ago, and I had it up in about a minute.  With practice, I could halve that…and honestly, I’m not interested in using this tent in weather that’s warm enough for rain.  Even so, it’s not difficult to insert the poles and position them correctly with the door mostly closed; you may get a bit of water or snow inside, but as soon as they’re in place you can stake it all out and then crawl inside to clip the poles into place.  Seemed pretty simple.

On on a personal note: if REI dropped the tent, that makes me feel better about it.  I know I’m in the minority, but I am not a fan of REI: they don’t carry most of the brands that I’ve learned to trust and they don’t really support the cottage industry, but they do carry a lot of stuff that’s big-name, big-label, trendy and GORP-core.  Sure, they carry some good/quality things, but for me the bad parts of that company outweigh the good aspects.  Again, that’s just a personal opinion…but I don’t look to them as an endorsement anymore.

REI says that it is silpoly, so would require a sil sealer, but it is probably seam sealed already.  Hope Black Diamond is steering you straight by recommending a Urethane sealer.

I don’t think the vestibule is the same fabric as any of the Bibler-series tents, but wouldn’t Seam Grip work on silpoly, as well?

This is the first time I’ve ever been stumped with an issue with a supposedly high end product,  and my longstanding high regard for Black Diamond is gone.  I’m very sorry to not be able to suggest a better fix.

It’s a well-made tent, no doubt; good seams, stitching looks quality, and the materials are top-end (even if I don’t know what they’re made from, LOL).  I have a lot of regard for BD, still, but it would be nice to get a reply from them on this one…and no worries on not having an answer: we’ll figure it out eventually.  I have a few months before I need to do anything with the tent.

Seems to be ripstop nylon: …

Thanks for that link; they never explicitly say that it’s silnylon, but at least we now know it’s ripstop, just like it appears.

do you really need to seam seal a tent?

I have never sealed a tent and never noticed any leakage.  With a mid that has seams that are at a fairly steep angle the water just flows down the flat felled seams.

Maybe use your tent and if it leaks too much, then seal the seams

If you have a tent with seams that are more horizontal at places, like a tunnel tent, maybe they need to be sealed?

do you really need to seam seal a tent?

I’m just following the instructions; I don’t expect this one to see much – if any – liquid precipitation, but the seam-sealing may be useful for more than just water intrustion.

Bonzo – “I haven’t started messing with the Seam Grip yet, but the Permatex was a brand new package…but seeing as I still don’t really know if I’m dealing with silnylon or another type of coating, I may have to just rely on doing the best I can with Seam Grip.”

The Ahwahnee tent is a waterproof breathable (WPB) single wall, so must have only a Durable Water Repellent (DWR) treatment on the outer face of the fabric, which might even include an extremely thin coat of polyurethane (PU) which would breathe and bond well with a fresh tube of Seam Grip.  Or not; so I think Black Diamond, if they prescribe a PU sealer over just the outer threads, should specify what kind of DWR treatments or coatings may be on the outer fabric of the main canopy of the nylon tent.  The tackyness of the PU seam grip with the need for powder is troubling.  I did note this comment in one of the reviews on the product page:  “Only problem I ever had was the dwr finish wearing off after many years.”  So it appears you are right on in looking for the nature of the DWR coating on the outside of the tent.  You shouldn’t have to guess.

Note that Permatex, if you are talking about the windshield sealer, is a silicone based sealer, and AFAIK won’t stick to a urethane based fabric coating, and vice-versa; meaning Seam Grip that is urethane based won’t stick to a silicone based coating.  But neither of these coatings would be used on the WPB exterior of the canopy, because it would no longer by breathable.  So the sealer would have to be confined to the threads on the outer seams, and it would have to be the right sealer; otherwise it would not adhere to the fabric underneath the threads and would be useless.

My greatest concern was whether the main tent would keep out rain when using the door.  But you have the tent, so would know better than I would; and the same goes for how easy the tent is to set up.  I was going by the reviews, on and off site, and your actual experience trumps them.

If rainstorms are not an issue because you will only use the tent in snowstorms, and maybe use a lighter tent for the other three seasons, I suppose it makes little difference about the coverage of the canopy over the doors.   Since I no longer trek in winter, one hardy tent suffices for the worst the other three seasons throw at me, so the rain coverage and dry pitch in storms are a must.

On piste, hope you get a clear answer from BD about the DWR coating or treatment on the main tent, so you can be sure of the right sealer for the threads.  You might also need to know that in order to refresh the DWR when it wears out.  Am stumped about the powder issue as Seam Grip has always worked fine for me on PU coated nylon, as noted in my earlier post  above.

I’m not an REI fan either.  REI replaced EMS as our largest gear store in Conway NH, and EMS moved up the street to much smaller quarters.  I went into the old EMS store regularly, but hardly ever go into the REI, as it is not well stocked.  Fortunately, I make most of my own packs and tents, and have pretty much what I need with the small items.  I always go to the small gear shop, Ragged Mtn, north of town because I know the owners, and to IME on the north end of town to sell on consignment all the footwear that didn’t quite fit after hard use.

Once the thread sealing issues are resolved, and you get the tent out in winter, hope you will post a report here about it.   You guys who go out in the drifts are in much better shape than I  am, and hopefully can carry the weight of a winter tent.  Thanks.