Thumbs Up “Like” option for BPL posts

[Matthew / BPL]

It is my perception that implementing a feature such as a Like button is nontrivial on a forum with 81k topics and over 1m posts. These changes represent lots of billable hours from developers or a significant distraction from the creation of original content that our staff works hard on.

As a person who has participated in online communities since literally the mid 1980s, I tend to think about everything through the lens of a forum user. Now that I have been involved as a moderator and community manager at BPL for a few years it has become clear to me how much time is spent testing gear, writing, planning, researching, and designing content. Although I barely get a glimpse onto that side through our internal chat, it has become clear to me that there is a lot of effort, time and work that goes into it. I think that original content is a huge part of what distinguishes BPL from other online sources.

Just my opinion, but I don’t see a Like button happening here and frankly I’m skeptical that Likes mean anything or increase participation. Chasing Likes has been one of the worst parts of social media (I’m looking at you, Meta). I find that Reddit’s fixation on upvotes prioritizes early comments rather than quality content. I’ve posted things over there that have received hundreds or thousands of upvotes because I was one of the first commenters and momentum built. I’ve made other posts that were very high quality which got pushed to the bottom of the pile because they were posted later in the discussion. I’m not a fan.

My suggestion is that if people like a point another member has made, please say so and explain why or which part of it you like. Expand generously on their point. Include other perspectives. Encourage further dialogue. Before I get off my soapbox, I will add that I particularly think it is important to welcome new members and beginners with generosity, kindness, and inclusivity.

[Dan]

I have the impression that this site has largely focused on content, especially about gear, and there are some amazing threads with incredible content, second to none in the context of lightweight backpacking.

Great content will create traffic, but IMO engagement and frequent participation (largely the underlying topic of this thread) is created by a sense of community. In association with my other hobbies, I voluntarily pay forum membership fees that are much more than the mandatory fees here because I feel like they give me access to my people. I don’t subscribe to any sites to access articles written by “experts.” That just doesn’t interest me.

I’m no expert on how to create a sense of community, but I can guess it isn’t easy and probably requires a lot of nurturing. Positive personal connections can only help. I see no harm in a “like” button, and I generally like the idea since I’d enjoy being able to “like” many of the posts that I read. I don’t necessarily think the button would be a silver bullet to magically creating an engaged community, but it could be a small way to start creating connections. There are probably many other ways to do it.

[Todd T]

…I’m skeptical that Likes mean anything or increase participation.

Ditto.  They may increase traffic, but not meaningful participation.  In fact, it seems logical that the ease of giving an information-free Like would reduce the tendency to supply some information-ful participation.  If it’s just traffic we want, I guarantee you we’d get a lot more with a Don’t Like button than Like.

Chasing Likes has been one of the worst parts of social media

Exactly.

My suggestion is that if people like a point another member has made, please say so and explain why or which part of it you like. Expand generously on their point. Include other perspectives.

Exactly.  The way to increase meaningful participation is to engage in meaningful participation.

[Ray J]

Neither WhiteBlaze nor HammockHangers forums have any “Like” or “Dislike” buttons.  But they are admined/owned by the same person/people so unless one gets the “Like/Dislike”, neither will the other.

On some non-hiking forums I frequent, most do have the Like/Dislike installed.  But I’m fairly sure they are using different forum software than here.  So it’s probably a “Click that option on for the following Sub/Forms” and the ADMIN is done.  If it gets out of hand, click it back off.   What I’ve noticed is that on those other forums is very few people use them at all.  There is another small hiking forum which does have it installed and I don’t believe I’ve seen more than three “Likes” to any post.  Most of those are on trip reports and people will also comment with how wonderful the photo’s are, or perhaps a question about the trip.

I don’t think having that would add members or even participation.  What it seems to do on that other hiking forum, is just let people give a Like about a post but not need to add any comment.  No one “Commenting on every post so I can get my post-numbers up”.

So…..well I’d be on the fence on adding or not on the “Like/Dislike” feature.

[Bruce Tolley]

@ matthew

“It is my perception that implementing a feature such as a Like button is nontrivial on a forum with 81k topics and over 1m posts. These changes represent lots of billable hours from developers or a significant distraction from the creation of original content that our staff works hard on.”

Excellent point.

[David Thomas]

“I’m no expert on how to create a sense of community, but I can guess it isn’t easy and probably requires a lot of nurturing”

At its best, the more personal nature of BPL posts convey a sense of the person and people feel connected after getting to know each other, remotely, over the years.  I’m sure I could fly into most places and borrow a stove or trekking poles I couldn’t fly with, as I have down trail angel stuff, lent cars and lodged BPLers that came to Alaska.   There’s a right size for that sort of sense of community and BPL may be getting too small and too inactive, but Reddit is clearly too big and impersonal.

[Matthew / BPL]

Yes that’s a great point. I’ve had the nicest people ever message me for my address because they thought I should try their Packa or their backpack.

David I got gear for you in AZ any time and always down to trade more spoons.

[HkNewman]

Remembering it was an option when the website redesign went through, but back when Chaff was a thing, .. it was brought up that dislikes via hard feelings may have migrated from there onto non-Chaff threads.

Anyways this thread gets a big thumbs… oh deng, can’t do that.

81k posts

Maybe that ship has sailed but who knows?  If a profile picture changes, it repopulates all the previous posts, but individual thumbs up/down is specific to that post.

Maybe have a contest at the end of the year for “best post” with runners up?   Maybe some of the more active forum areas like gear = “best gear post”, etc..?

[jscott]

Without a thumbs down option…how am I supposed to respond when someone writes how they like to listen to Wham! when out in the wild?

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

To me, the facts are pretty straight forward:activity on this site, while high in quality is low in participation/activity.  Any changes to improve this is going to require effort somehow.  Changes like that are always going to have a significant cost.  My 2 cents.

[Monte Masterson]

Something to keep in mind: I’ve found that if I make a stupid post on other forums I get zero likes and then someone will reply to my post with clever criticism (snark I deserve for sounding dumb) and then others will give a lot of “Likes” to the person who pointed out the foolishness of my post. That tells me all I need to know. It means that what I wrote did not come off well and the crowd is making me aware. It’s a good as a “Dislike” and very humbling.

Best to just charge $10 a year to post on Gear Swap and nothing at all for the other forums. Income would probably not be too much less but membership would quadruple. There’d be far more action and that in turn would get the ones posting for free to pony up $10 to post on Gear Swap. Craig is right, the demographic is narrow, kind of like Harley riders and horse racing fans…..old white folks over 50. Gotta do something to bring in Millennials and Gen Z, also people of color. The pay wall eliminates many marginalized young people who might want to engage with seasoned UL backpackers on BPL.

MYOG has dwindled way down on BPL too. Some of it has to do with the fact that there is a plethora of ultralight options available nowadays. SUL is basically down to just a trickle. It has fallen way out of fashion and many consider us SUL’ers to be borderline nutjobs, and I get it. Yes there are some of us who still despise weight to the point of being almost irrational, and I hate every single ounce to the core of my being.

I appreciate Ryan, Roger, Matthew and all BPL staff members more than words can convey. backpackinglight has brought me out of the dark ages. Yet I’d find a way to install a “Like” button.

[Bill Budney]

I appreciate Ryan, Roger, Matthew and all BPL staff members more than words can convey.

+1

[W I S N E R !]

Food for thought:

As soon as a space finds itself thinking that it should be attracting more diversity, whatever that means in the given context, that space needs to ask itself a few questions: Why didn’t it happen in the first place? Are those reasons still in play? And finally, some reflection on why you want to make your space more inclusive would be very prudent. There’s a fine line between “savior” tendencies and a genuine desire for inclusive discussions. Inviting new people into a space because it makes you feel better having them there is not sufficient.

I have a strong hunch that ship already sailed here. It’s the 21st century, online spaces that are more inclusive/reflective of their communities are both fast and easy to create, and nobody needs to wait around for a third party to do it for them. People are not helpless, they’ll create the spaces they need, and have already done so through the likes of Discord and Reddit…while avoiding third party paywalls…which are often perceived as gatekeeping.

I was on the PCT for two different trips a few weeks ago and happened to hang out with a huge segment of this year’s thru hikers. The demographic was strikingly different from that of BPL and I didn’t get the vibe that any of them needed help from “seasoned UL backpackers on BPL”. Tons of 20-somethings kitted up with the latest and greatest UL gear. They’re doing just fine without this forum.

[Dan]

You are the first person to mention diversity or inclusion in this thread, and you seem to be doing it in a negative way. The focus has been on increased participation.

[W I S N E R !]

If you cannot speak to one, you’re going to lose the other.

[Dan]

I’m not sure I’m getting your point. Are you saying that if the forum did attempt to be more inclusive in an effort to have more participation, even more of the old-guard would leave?

[BlackHatGuy]

NVM. Thread drift.

[Matthew / BPL]

Perhaps thread drift as well, but I don’t want some of what has been said above to go unaddressed. I can speak a little bit about how inclusion matters to BPL, at least as it applies to the forums.

BPL wants people to feel comfortable to post here. We (meaning me but in close consultation with Ryan and other BPL staff members) moderate posts that might be unwelcoming. We do this for a couple of reasons: One is that we don’t think it’s ok to use language that is intolerant towards women, queer folks, or people of the global majority. Another reason is feedback we receive from time to time from members about how they don’t feel comfortable posting in our forums because of the issues above but also sarcasm and rabidly forceful opinions that their way of backpacking is The One Right Way Of Doing Things.

This forum has guidelines. They are summarized briefly right above the submit button when you post.

BPL Purpose

BPL Core Values

[Terran Terran]

When there’s a post asking how to set up a tent, nobody can answer. When a poster mentions his experience, he’s told to be quite by those without experience. I’m told not to listen to him. Can you address the fear mongering? It’s taken over common sense. Those with experience, aren’t posting. Very few anyway. You push the products that sponsor you. The cottage industry that used to post here left. It wasn’t me that chased them off. You’re barking up the wrong tree.

[jscott]

When there’s a post asking how to set up a tent, nobody can answer”

????? That’s not been my experience reading posts here. Etc.

[Monte Masterson]

Like for jscott’s above post

There are some very savvy young ultralight backpackers out there Craig, but I still say us crusty old birds here on BPL are the daddies of ultralight, and that’s simply because of decades experience. It doesn’t count for everything though, and I certainly wouldn’t underestimate the Gen Z-ers one bit, however probably 2/3 of the top cutting-edge ultralight gear makers post here on BPL.

And ultralight backpacking is even more of a Godsend to older people with foot and leg issues. The payoff is even greater and therefore many Boomers and Gen X’ers maybe pursue it a little more. And there are some seriously smart people who dwell here on BPL. They make me feel humble. I’m talking some heavyweights in science and engineering who let me know when to stop writing and just read. Of course older people are also more apt to have the money to buy the “latest thing” (which can lead to a whole other topic).

 

[BlackHatGuy]

Getting a bit heated for no reason I can think of. A quick look at recent forum topics shows plenty of threads with people asking for assistance/information and replies to those requests. There will always be some folks who aren’t, shall we say, skilled in social interaction. But over the years I’ve been here those types are generally fewer than you’ll find on other sites. I think there’s a lot of really good people here, as David pointed out, ready and willing to help in the forums, and some even ready to help outside the forums. You don’t get much of that elsewhere.

Edit to add: As far as older members leaving, I think that’s a natural evolution of any site. Craig pointed some of this out. Some of us simply move on to other interests, and lose interest in a specific site (this is a gear nerd site, we all know that, and some folks dial in their kit and have no interest in the latest/greatest), etc. Shedding older (by time on site, not by age) members isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it helps a site from stagnating.

Y’all have fun.

[David Thomas]

I see the drift from like buttons to greater participation to diversity being reasonable.  We’re hardly representative of the people on the planet.  Of course backpacking is a leisure activity (an oxymoron) – you need some time off and funds to do so and is therefore always somewhat selective.

I’ll be on the trail up Half Dome on Monday and based on recent experience, I expect younger, more diverse hikers than the BPL regulars.  By a lot.  A demographic who’ll watch a YouTube video (or TikToks) to learn a new skill.  Some of them will be there primarily to film their own content.

[Alex H]

Back to the original question, I am a moderator on a much smaller and more specialized forum which has changed platforms a number of times over 17 years.  We currently have a like/dislike button and I am torn on having it.  What I find is that folks will be lazy and hit the like button and not take the few extra seconds to type out a response, even if it is only an I agree with that statement kind of thing.  It does reduce the number of posts and leaves only the ones with more substance.  It does at least give the original poster some recognition of what they did contribute.  The dislike button is essentially never used.

All forums lose members over time and the old guard posts less and less because it has all been said already in some cases.  The thing that mystifies me, on my forum, is we get several new folks sign up every day but they almost never post anything, very rare to get one to participate.  I know they come for the depth of information we already have posted but you would think they would also as a question every so often.

[Ray J]

On other forums I frequent with the Like/Dislike, I also rarely hit Dislike.  Written language is always open to interpretation by the readers.  I’m sometimes a bit taken-back by a response to one of my posts on a forum, or social media, but then realize that the other person had an interpretation that was valid.  My reply left that open.  So I pause, take a breath, and compose a better response to the person who replied.  Sometimes even editing my original posts to add clarity.

On your comment about people signing up and not posting.  I moderated several forums years ago and also noticed that.  They sign up so they can read anything.  Lose interest or sleep and never return.  Some other forums don’t ever look at those and remove them.  Those other forums I moderated, had built in code that I would just add the “Where” clause to.  A few times a year I would run a Delete User process that said “If they NEVER posted (post-count = zero) and they have not logged on in over 370 days, delete”.  Get on some of the hiking forums, list by user, then sort out post-count low–high.  One of the forums, you are about 30 pages into their users before post count is 1.

Some of the never posts are also people doing scam stuff.

BPL has good content.  A narrow focus means a narrow audience.  I don’t think the Like/Dislike option will change much of anything.  Other than people, like me, who read something, gain some knowledge but have nothing to add, would use a “Like” button to let the poster know the content was useful.

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