Thoughts on packs? General philosphy

Comfort over spreadsheet weight. Now, having said that, personally there’s no way to predict how a pack is going to work out until it is put to use, regardless of what the specs say and what we perceive it will happen via reviews, specs, etc.

I have never used the Circuit, but we tested the GG Crown 1st gen and my wife tested the Fusion 50 1st gen. I typically carry a load of 23 lbs and she 19lbs. and we’ll go up about 5 lbs from there based on food, etc. The Crown was one of the first packs we tested below the 4 lbs mark. It was a dream. We both loved it. It was the most comfy pack I ever tested with 28 lbs or less. It is the only pack I ever had that I would say truly hugged my back. We didn’t keep it because we went on a three day two night hike and we ended up with two small tears on the hipbelt. We had been careful. Where did they come from? No clue. My wife insisted we keep looking. So we returned it to REI.

We noticed the GG Blaze had a beefier looking hipbelt, and similar construction to the Crown, so we tried that. In the end the shoulder straps bothered her and the hipbelt bothered me. Back to REI.

Eventually my wife settled on a REI Flash 50 she liked and used that for a few years. But the stitching came apart in a couple of spots about a year and a half ago, and she started looking for a new pack. First we got a Gossamer Gear Silverback. Durable fabric, frame that connected directly to the hipbelt, we loaded it up and we both were superhappy with it. Until we put it on with 25 lbs. The shoulder straps rested uncomfortably on our shoulders. Almost like the inside dug in and the outside lifted off. I measured the torso. It was the right length. We  sent it back to Gossamer Gear. I noticed the pictures on their website that say Sold Out show a different pack, so I hope they fix whatever the issue was in this second iteration.

Then I acquired a used Fusion 50 first gen. Again, on paper and in our hands, great. We load it up, and we are happy with capacity and features. She puts it on and takes it off. The lumbar area bothers her just putting it on. It’s a no go.

She loves her used, beat up HMG 2400 white from back in the day from years ago, but unfortunately it’s often two small for her load and I haven’t found something that fits her in a larger volume. Just haven’t found a 3400 or 440 in our price range, so she hasn’t tried those. She loves the look of our son’s REI external frame made for kiddos. The current new adult ones by Kelty and Jansport seem too heavy (around 5 lbs). I have heard of 3+ lbs older models, but the one I found had a very not comfy looking hipbelt and straps. We’ll keep looking. For now, she’ll take the HMG 2400 and I take the extra load :(

So, comfort is number one. And regardless of appearances, even when it is in your hand, until you load it up, throw it over and start trekking, there is no way to see how it’ll fit.

With over 50 years of backpacking, 43 of which – on my own, I feel qualified to comment.
My philosophy regarding packs is simple:
Comfort is the prime objective. All the compromising is done on the side of weight, features, and other subtleties.
Once comfort is found, the quest for a lighter pack offering the same – or better – comfort can begin. Or not.

I am just curious to see how other people address these issues.

Zpacks Arc Blast, that’s how I do it.

Two issues with the Arc Blast. First, when I have the “partner” issue which on a 5 day trip has me carrying 15 lbs of food alone. Add in 4.4 lbs of water minimum and I would basically need a 10lbs base weight to not go over 30 lbs. Since the Arc Haul is a bit outside of my budget (that could carry my load out) the expense needed to lower my tent and sleeping bag weight to reach 10 lbs is also a non-starter.

I actually found something funny. I am also an avid cyclist. We have a saying there; “it cost $1.00 per gram to reduce weight. The same rule seems to apply to backpacking lol.

The key for my wife and I has been switching to myog packs.  With diligence and trial and error I think most people could make a pack that meets their needs and weighs a pound or less.

We had similar success with making the tent we wanted many years ago.

What works for us probably wouldn’t work for everyone.  With myog, however, you only have to satisfy one person.

I only wish I purchased a Dan McHale pack 40 years ago instead of wasting all my time and money on inferior packs.  So my recommendation to serious backpackers who are planning a lifetime of backpacking is to investigate his packs—while he’s still making them.

If you need a pack that’s capable of carrying heavier loads, carries light loads well, and prioritizes comfort over SUL weights, I can’t recommend the Seek Outside Divide highly enough. I’ve carried between 20 and 65 pounds in it, with all the load comfortably on my hips. It weighs about 48 oz, 9-12 oz heavier than the Circuit and Crown2 you mention, but to me, the comfort trade-off is totally worth it.

I needed a new pack for a big Grand Canyon trip I did last year, that included multi-day water carries and 13 days of food. I tried the SMD Fusion 65 first, but like @iago’s wife, found it uncomfortable in the lumbar region. Next tried the SO Divide, and was so glad the Fusion was uncomfortable, because otherwise I’d have missed out on the Divide’s vastly superior suspension system (and a few ounces lighter to boot).

Now I’m considering tackling the PCT, and thinking about gear for such a trip. Do I stick with the Divide, which I love? Or drop a pound and a half and take a flyer on an SWD or Arc Blast? My total weight should be 20-25 pounds most places, 30 in the Sierras or desert (water), so I don’t need the load hauling abilities of the Divide. Obviously saving 24 ounces would be huge – but would that translate to less fatigue given the comfort of the Divide? Same dilemma you have…

As iago said, it is all about how it fits you and then how it carries.  This is one area that I have gone up in weight to get the most comfortable carry but then I also do a lot of desert hiking with bigger water loads.  My recommendation is the Elemental Horizons Kalais, superior suspension and adjustability the only other pack that is comparable to me would be the Seek Outside.  Depending on size 35-45 oz. and only $270.  Here are my thoughts on all such size packs.

This is a really complicated topic but I will attempt to wade in.

As it pertains to the pack “beating up” your body, my opinion is that weight spent on reducing this is generally poorly spent, but certainly you need the right tool for the job.

A pack can “beat up” your body in many ways, so to start we need to broadly categorize that. l think of it in three areas – these are effects on (1) posture, (2) pressure points and (3) wear on legs. For examples, a pack with a trampoline back has a negative effect on your posture because it requires leaning forward more, a pack with a poor frame or cushioning won’t distribute the weight ideally so you get sore pressure points (e.g. shoulders) and lastly, even a hypothetical pack that perfectly fits you and transfers the load with maximum comfort, still takes a toll on your legs because they have to carry that weight every step of the way. A key point I want to make is I think pack discussion in general puts too much emphasis on #2, and not enough on #3.

When I say that “My opinion is that weight spent on “comfort” in a pack is generally poorly spent”, I am speaking in the context of UL hiking and what I mean is that the benefits that folks often cite do not justify the weight increase in many instances. Often they are justifying the inclusion of features that might be helpful in some contexts but are often overkill like buying a Ford F-150 to bring home the groceries.

A few examples are:
1) The hipbelts on the Seek Outside packs are massively padded and quite heavy (relatively speaking). The potential advantage is better load distribution, but I am more than pleased with the load distribution of hipbelts weighing half this for loads under 40 lbs, so IMO it’s not weight well spent for UL loads.
2) The same goes for the Seek Outside frames. I think they are total overkill for 20 – 30 lbs loads when a couple lightweight frame stays can already transfer 100% of the load to your hips. If you want one to lug 40 – 50 lbs then sure, but adding an additional half pound of frame for UL loads is overkill. I very much disagree that adding a half pound here is achieving a net improvement in overall body stress when carrying a UL load.
3) The Zpacks trampoline back has the advantage of cooling your back, but I think this advantage is small and far outweighted by the much larger negative effect it has on posture. Less sweating on the back is nice, but I routinely get a sore back when I use trampoline packs for moderate loads on all day hikes, so the downsides outweigh the upsides. The physics back this up – moving the load away from your back unavoidably causes you to lean forward more, which puts more of the strain on your muscles and connective tissue, and less on your skeletal system. It’s one of those things where the benefits are immediate and noticeable, while the negatives are more subtle, so folks rave while IMO making a poor overall decision. With that said, it may be justifiable for very sweaty hikers that might otherwise chafe, or in very hot climates.

My overall philosophy is that you want a pack with enough frame and cushioning to transfer the loads you will be commonly carrying (which isn’t much for UL loads). So you want to avoid excessive sore spots. However, this needs to be balanced with the overall weight because adding features adds weight which adds wear on your legs that isn’t an acute effect like sore spots, but has larger but more subtle chronic effects on your body. So basically I want the lightest pack that will do the job. More “comfort” isn’t always better because it has other downsides.

As an extreme example, folks lugging 7 lbs Dana Designs packs with massive frames and huge padding routinely claim that their packs are the utmost in comfort and yet they seem far more beat up at the end of the day. They think they are choosing comfort, but evidently they are not. Of course there is more than just the pack here since the loads inside the packs are different too, but it’s important to remember that regardless of how wonderfully the load is transferred, your legs are still carrying that weight with every step and a half pound does add up to more cumulative fatigue. Thus you want enough frame and padding for the task at hand, but more isn’t always better. IMO, It’s not maximizing comfort irrespective of weight, it’s achieving reasonable comfort for the lowest weight.

To be clear, I’m not saying the SO Divide and many other heavier packs are bad packs – they have their appropriate uses – but I think they are suboptimal for UL loads. If you want one because you sometimes carry 50 lbs and think that versatility is worth a suboptimal pack when you’re carrying 25 lbs, then that’s a reasonable compromise.

Appreciate your input, Dan. Which packs would you be looking at for a total pack weight of 20-25 pounds, sometimes 30, if you were buying new?

The dual frame stay packs that use a waterproof material are my favorite – so packs like the SWD Long Haul, HMG Windrider, Hanchor Marl etc.

The HMG ones are quite expensive and more suited to lighter loads, as they use lighter material and lack load lifters, the SWD pack is a well rounded pack, and then the Hanchor pack is more suited to loads on the heavier side of the UL range (e.g. 25 – 40 lbs) because it has both load lifters, tough fabric standard and an additional horizontal stay.

The SWD Long Haul 40 is about 26oz and offers dual stays, decent padding and load lifters. Arguably the optional tough VX21 fabric is a good call, which brings the pack to 28oz or so. That seems like a well rounded choice to me, although I haven’t used one.

Generally, I would say that you can have a pack that is well featured and plenty capable for loads up to 35 lbs for less than 30oz, so there’s really no reason to ever go with a pack heavier than 30oz for UL hiking. You can get that closer to 20oz if you opt for lighter fabrics and minimal features, or quite a bit less than that still if you’re targeting a pack at 10 – 20 lbs loads instead of 20 – 35 lbs.

I’m sure there are many other good options too – I haven’t familiarized myself with the current pack offerings from all the companies.

Similar to what I’d been looking at, though I had the Arc Blast/Haul on my list too. Durability of the Blast seems debatable and the Haul seems too big, and I hadn’t considered their ergonomic drawbacks.

HMG seems to have mixed reviews and lacks load lifters. Hanchor Marl looks great, but is more pack that I need (will be keeping the Divide); same with the EH Kalais. The Katabatic Onni looks tempting, but not many reviews, and suspension doesn’t look as convincing (framesheet + 1 stay). The SWD is looking better and better…

@Dan. My issue is that I will not in the near future have the cash to carry an UL load in the seasons I like to pack in (which I shoulder seasons in PA as we are now). My base weight this time of year is around 18.5 lbs with a pack that weighs 3.11 lbs. Add in my budget for a new pack, which seems the place to start considering I will upgrade tent (2 person 2.5 lbs) sleeping bag (2.2 lbs) sleeping pad (17 oz) in the future, is $250.00 max, I seem limited in terms of packs that can handle a load that includes 15 lbs in food alone. Damn budgets.

Gear Swap is your friend :-)

I think there is an oft noted fallacy about the Arc Blast and moving the centre of gravity away from the body. The Arc Blast contacts the body at the hip and shoulder and the arc can be adjusted so that the pack is only just not touching the body. Set up like this the pack is no more removed from the body than one with padding protecting your back from the pack contents, and much less than one that uses a mat between the wearer and the pack ala Gossamer Gear. And that little gap makes it easier to pack whatever you want (including heavier hard objects) close to the back an so move the centre of gravity in closer to your body.

Moreover, you can use the pack with no arc in cooler weather and only use the trampoline when the weather is hot enough to warrant it.

I agree in general with What Dan Durston says above regarding not much bang for your ounce in terms of additional comfort with added weight. As to particular packs, I can’t say since I have been making my own for a long time.

What I would like to add is some of the design conclusions I have come to over time based on using and making packs, and from earlier experience selling various brands of packs.

1. Sumptuous hipbelts aren’t. My experience suggests that anything more than about 5/8″ of firm foam (like EVA) is a waste. A belt with that much padding can handle more weight than you ever want to carry, and adding more layers of softer stuff does not add comfort except in the showroom. Once in real use the soft stuff just compresses to nothing and does not add comfort. And for lighter loads, like anything under 40 lbs – 3/8″ EVA does the job nicely. My summer pack, which I find comfortable up to around 30 lbs or so, has 1/4″ EVA in the hipbelt and shoulder straps. Width is the key, not thickness of padding.
2. I ignore any kind of back ventilation ideas. My old frame pack has a full mesh back panel, and I always found that plenty sweaty despite the fact that it has better airflow than anything else I’ve ever tried. So I do nothing in that regard, and save weight. I find no difference in actual use. My back gets sweaty regardless.
3. Padding in the part of the pack that touches your back is mostly a waste, If you pack carefully you don’t need any; I don’t put any in my packs, and even with a vertical bear canister I am comfortable.
4. I think foam pads attempting to function as frames are a waste. They just don’t have the stiffness required to transfer weight to the hipbelt effectively. Even the lightest aluminum stays do a far better job, and the weight difference is truly trivial. The stays in my summer packs are 3 oz. for the pair – aluminum 1/8″ x 5/16″ – and will handle more weight than the hipbelt will.
5. A well-designed and shaped hipbelt is much, much better than a poorly shaped one. Conical shape is a must, and kudos to Dan McHale for the double buckle idea, it really makes a difference. And any pack with just “wings” attached to the bottom corners of the pack is missing out. I think the attachment of belt to pack should not be wider than about 8″ or so for the average size guy – a bit more if you are built on a larger scale. Otherwise, when the pack is stuffed full you end up with gaps, where the belt is not in full firm contact with your pelvis.
6. If you want a light pack, make it simple. Pockets, flaps, etc my be convenient but they add weight and have nothing to do with how the pack carries. The lightest pack to handle a given weight has as much suspension as is needed attached to s simple sack. I don’t go quite that far because I do car about convenience to some extent, but I keep it in mind anytime I think something might be handy to have on a pack.

William. When I mentioned trampoline style packs I was more referring to Osprey. Due to my issues of having to carry a fair amount of someone else’s weight in my pack the Blast wouldn’t work and regardless both that, and the Haul are outside of my budget, otherwise I would actually be seriously considering the Arc Haul.

Paul, I completely agree with the last one on your list. That’s why all of the packs I am looking at now are roll tops. I think weight savings via simplicity of design, vs compromising on support, and durability, is preferable.

+1 for @iago’s comments, in particular:

So, comfort is number one. And regardless of appearances, even when it is in your hand, until you load it up, throw it over and start trekking, there is no way to see how it’ll fit.

I went through a year-long Goldilocks-like quest for a pack that was “just right.” I literally suffered through three highly-regarded packs that looked great and fit well in my living room, but collapsed or tortured my body or had other problems when loaded with actual gear and food, and hiking on a real trail.

Luckily, I tried with the much-maligned HMG Windrider 2400. Despite the lack of load lifters, smallish capacity, high price, and a few poor design decisions, I’m still very, very happy with that pack up to 35 pounds. I hope to never carry more.

+1 for every one of @paul-1’s comments. I’ve never designed or built a pack, but it resonates with my experience.

I would add that (some) shoulder strap padding absolutely makes a difference. The latest designs from Gossamer Gear and others using virtually unpadded “mesh” shoulder straps are a pain in the neck and shoulder. For me.

Lots of people will tell you “I love Pack X.” That doesn’t really help you find the best pack. Only you can figure that out through trial and error.

— Rex

@williamc3: Good point about the adjustability of the Zpacks trampoline. Zpacks shows it with the load set back a couple inches from the wearers back and most folks I’ve seen are using it like that, but it’s a good point that excessive gaps are only a possibility and not a mandatory configuration. Used thoughtfully this could be a useful feature.

Question: If you reduce the trampoline gap, does that cross bar ever rub or bump into your back?

@paul-1: Can you provide a good example of a conical hipbelt? I’ve never put much thought into this aspect of a pack.

@Dan Durston, I actually find it very difficult to set the pack up as in the picture. I set it up with a similar gap when empty, but when I fill the pack it pushes a lot of the bow back out of it. Neither I nor my wife have had a problem with the cross bar rubbing, though thinking about it you would expect it to be a problem. The stays are flexible so perhaps the weight is bowing the pack slightly, even without the stays tensioned?

I have a Women’s GG Crown2 60 for winter use and I would describe the hip belt as conical. I find it a very comfortable hip belt.

With regard to trampoline backs and sweating, the trampoline won’t stop you sweating – if your front is sweaty your back will be sweaty too – but it will make you cooler as the sweat can do its evaporative cooling. If you turn your back to the breeze and then your side to the breeze, you’ll really notice a difference.

As it was one of your choices, I think getting a Massdrop modified Granite Gear Crown2 60l for $120 makes it an easier decision. Everything else is 2x-3x more $$$. And it carries weight really really well.

Rick I was actually all over that, UNTIL I saw they had sold out of “regular”. That was a screaming deal. Even if it didn’t work out $120.00 then I could sell it on eBay likely for the same if it didn’t work since the “regular” pack is 199.00

Paul,

I have come to similar conclusions from making my own packs for the last 20 years or so.  I agree with all 6 of your points.

Dan – I took a couple photos of one of my packs. this pack is particularly narrow but the belt is my usual.

The top edge of the belt is cut on a radius; the bottom edge is cut on a longer radius. The lumbar pad is tapered so that the assembly creates a smooth curve all the way across. Geometrically it is a conic section.

When buckled, you can see that the top of the belt has a smaller circumference than the bottom does – to put it another way, the belt flares out at the bottom. Human hips are the same – narrower at the waist and widening below. So a conical belt spreads pressure more effectively, and is less inclined to slide down. All of that equals more comfort. For my belts, I determined the precise shape that works for me through trial and error about 35 years ago. The double buckles refine the fit, allowing you to adjust top and bottom of the belt independently, thus varying the difference between top and bottom girth just a bit.