The Kelty external frame backpack thread

Mt Hood – 2003 – next to split rock in Paradise Park – Tioga

I am a hoarder so I hang on to it even though I’ll never use it again

Holy cow. How’s it feel with 53 pounds in it?

Pretty darn good actually, the most comfortable option I’ve ever tried.  The Cache Hauler harness is extremely well-padded (it’s capable of lugging around 200lbs not that I’d want to).

When we went on a winter excursion during Winter Storm Jonas, I carried 75lbs using my Super Tioga:

In the 1980’s and 1990’s I used a CampTrails “WolfPack” which is very similar: aluminum external frame, large-volume pack bag, “yoke suspension” system.  Even when I went “UL” (for that era), I had 4+ pounds of pack.  The best I did in the 1980s was a 9-day trip with a starting, total weight (with food!) of 29 pounds (including a few pounds of co-leader stuff).

About 2001, I got a slightly lighter Kelty external-frame and bag – not quite so many compartments and zippers and of a slightly lighter-weight nylon.  That’s been my go-to pack for the kind of young-family trips Casey describes: One or two kids along, especially when my wife was carrying one on her back (and one trip, also one fairly advanced in pregnancy, too).  In those cases, If she’s got the kid and the kid stuff (diapers, kid’s warm clothes) and maybe a sleeping bag, then I’ve got EVERYTHING else – shelter, more bags, food, adult clothing, cook gear.  Yeah, there are 2-pound options that are tolerable for carrying 45 pounds = 47 total, but a 4 pound external-frame is SO much nicer for carrying the weight and 49 pounds isn’t much heavier.

And there are times were you just need to move weight, however UL or SUL you may be at other times.  Shoot a bear or a caribou and you have to carry out the meat.  On a service trip, you’re a pack mule bringing in tools, supplies and even firewood: that’s why you’re there – to haul weight.

Casey: nice that you posted photos.  A suggestion:  That “load-leveler” strap?  The 1-inch webbing that goes from the pack frame to the top of your shoulder?  Reposition it much lower down on the pack frame so it much closer to level, you’ll probably find it more comfortable that way.

I’d suggest you try going without the pack cover by lining the compartments that have must-stay-dry clothing with a plastic bag and similarly line your sleeping bag / quilt stuff sacks.  I find it keeps that gear drier and it allows you far easier access to food and gear as you hike especially in the rain.

If that side photo is with the pack at 53 pounds, you’ve done an admirable job of keeping the dense items where they belong: near your back and high in the pack.  Otherwise, you’d be leaning far further forward.

Also, unless you plan to gain 250 pounds, trim a foot off each end of that waist belt – those tails are just extra weight that gets in the way.  Leave a few extra inches for use over thicker winter clothes (I use my external-frame on a lot of winter trip, even after the kids grew up and could carry their own load, because there’s just a lot more stuff to bring when snow camping.)

On that photo of the Tioga with 75-pounds: Exactly right placement of the ridge rests:  Use the volume down low and create more volume out the back with lightest-density items (especially CCF pads, followed by sleeping bags/quilts).

Sometimes the “roll bar” seems like a wasted 4-5 ounces, but it sure does make that top stuff sack much more secure.  And if you need to take even more weight/volume from a companion, you can lash another layer on top in a pinch.

“but a 4 pound external-frame is SO much nicer for carrying the weight and [2 extra] pounds isn’t much heavier”

Exactly!  The stock Serac weighed 5lb 6oz, but the upgraded one weighs 5lb 11oz.  The smaller-bag Tioga, strangely, weighs more at 6lb 4oz.  In any case, the weight isn’t a concern as it definitely handles the weight better.  Plus some of the beefy internal frame packs I tried trying to find something that would carry the weight well weighed more like 7lb. :'(

” A suggestion:  That “load-leveler” strap?  The 1-inch webbing that goes from the pack frame to the top of your shoulder?  Reposition it much lower down on the pack frame so it much closer to level, you’ll probably find it more comfortable that way.”

It came with the load adjustment straps attached to the top of the bar on the same pins that hold the shoulder straps to the bottom of the bar.  That wasn’t very effective, and I don’t see any way to move them anywhere in between these two extremes without modifying the frame to have a couple vertical bars with spacers on it like the Tioga frame has.  I was able to attach them higher just weaving the webbing around the frame with no modification, and it actually works quite well.  I can really pull down on them hard if I want the pack to ride really close without much play, and it stays comfortable as this pulls the pack downward but does not put the weight onto my shoulders.  I may end up making modifications in time once I’m sure about what I want to do but have not crossed that line yet.

“I’d suggest you try going without the pack cover by lining the compartments that have must-stay-dry clothing with a plastic bag and similarly line your sleeping bag / quilt stuff sacks.  I find it keeps that gear drier and it allows you far easier access to food and gear as you hike especially in the rain.”

I use Sea-to-Summit Ultra-Sil Dry Compression sacks for our sleeping quilt and clothing.  I use a couple non-compression Dry sacks of the same variety for electronics and toilet paper.  So I don’t actually need a rain cover, but I had it so I thought I’d give it a go.

“If that side photo is with the pack at 53 pounds, you’ve done an admirable job of keeping the dense items where they belong: near your back and high in the pack.  Otherwise, you’d be leaning far further forward.”

Yep, thank you for the compliment.  This is one reason I like the Serac more than the Tioga – even though the arced frame means that the top comes very close to my head, it means the weight ends up better centered over me.  I have our down sleeping gear in the bottom compartment, mainly cookware and stove in the middle one, and then anything heavy, along with food, clothing, and water in the top compartment.  The external pouches are great for keeping things very organized, and each of the 5 pockets has a specific purpose.

“Also, unless you plan to gain 250 pounds, trim a foot off each end of that waist belt – those tails are just extra weight that gets in the way.”

Yeah, that’s on my modification list.  I’ll post more ideas later.  I just want to be really sure about what I’m going to do before I start doing things I can’t undo.

It looks good Casey.  Now it’s time to start trimming down what you take?  I know you covered some of it over at white blaze,  what makes up the 53 pounds.

I still do a few trips each year with my Kelty(s), usually the D4, because the Serac is way too big for my current gear, unless I bring some of my old stuff. When internals supplanted external frames, they were even heavier than the old Kelty packs. My D4 weighs 3lbs 9oz, and my Serac is right at 5lbs. I also have a Serac Expedition, which is larger than Casey’s and my Serac.

I have posted these links before, but some folks may find them interesting. The first link is a comprehensive review and history of Kelty packs, prior to the Tioga and successors.

Kelty Backpacks

Trip Report with Kelty D4 (2012)

Trip Report with Kelty Serac (2013)

Today most of my trips are with one of my two McHale packs or a zPacks Zero, which surprisingly refuses to die.

Edit: fixed link to D4 Trip

I need to weigh mine again actually.  The point at which I took the weight, I had the XL packbag attached to the L frame, so it is a bit lighter now.  Nick’s is a size M, I presume with the original harness, hence the lighter weight still.

Here is a picture of the Tioga (I believe the frame is a S or M size but am not certain), an XL Serac, and a L 50th Anniversary Edition pack:

The packbags of the Serac and Tioga are very similar – the Serac simply has an added middle compartment extending the overall length of the packbag, and the Tioga opts to replace two smaller side pouches with a single longer pouch.  The longer pouch ends up handy for some things.  Since the Serac does not have such a long pouch, I have to strap my tent on top, or would have to put my tent poles into the main compartment diagonally, as they are too long to fit either horizontally or vertically.

Tioga vs. Serac:

The frames themselves are quite different, with the Tioga having a vertically straight frame (which I don’t like as much from a weight perspective, though it does allow greater head mobility), and a curved portion at the bottom, which I did appreciate though it added weight and doesn’t seem necessary.

The Tioga frame features an extra bar that’s only a few inches above the bar the shoulder straps.  Then there are two pins mounted between that extra bar and the next bar up.  In conjunction with some spacers, this provides an ideal attachment point for the load adjuster straps that the Serac did not originally have.  I’m not sure how to add a better attachment point to the Serac.  Another horizonal cross bar could be welded on but that would add significant weight. or perhaps the existing vertical pins could have spacers added to them.  However, they are not easily removable (I think I’d have to bend them to get them out), and it would require a lot of spacers.  As the Serac pins are so much longer, I’m not sure they wouldn’t bend if used that way either…

The older harness parts attach via cords that are held in place by tension – more modern harnesses use a plastic tri-glide and webbing that is probably more durable, but this works well:

The original Serac harness had all-metal hardware (which I really like!), but thin padding that had hardened to rock.  The hip belt did not have a deep recess in the center to hold in place on your iliac crest the way the newer ones tend to do:

Comparison between XL and L Serac frames.  The middle portion is extended on the XL, to create a longer distance between the hip belt and shoulder straps.  Size S and M frames are narrower as well:

Interestingly, the spacing of the mounting holes for the packbag are identical, except for the bottommost one:

The lower sleeping bag compartment size is identical on both bags:

Here I have lined up the seam between the middle and upper compartments, so you can see that both the top main compartment, as well as the middle compartment, are each about 1 inch taller on the XL versus the L.  In addition, the smaller external pockets are taller on the XL as well:

The mesh back suspension from the Cache Hauler was huge compared to the original Serac one.  It is complete overkill, and not at all necessary with any sort of reasonable weight.  This is something that would be handy if you were hauling over a hundred pounds and couldn’t help but lean forward to do it.  That said, I like it and choose to use it even though I think it’s unnecessary for me.  Plus the green color matches the Serac packbag perfectly, and it fits great onto the Serac frame (both L and XL):

Since the only difference in mounting the XL and L is the bottom hole, you can easily mount the XL bag on the L frame – it just goes down further.  I tried it out and saved a picture, using some guy line to hold the bottom in place, though I’ve opted to not stick with it as I simply don’t need the extra capacity:

The old metal and newer plastic parts on the shoulder straps, etc. are perfectly compatible and Kelty has not changed the width of webbing used for either the shoulder straps or hip belt.  It would be nice to collect enough metal bits and one day replace all the plastic parts of the Cache Hauler harness with metal hardware:

Casey – That’s what I always refer to as a “papa bear” load. Mine often included the inflatable boat for fun on the lake. My old frame pack is a Trailwise with homemade packbag. Fortunately my boys are now bigger than I am and stronger too, so now I get them to carry the heavy stuff. Redemption at last.

AS for the “lifter” straps – give it go without them. We didn’t have them at all in the olden times (like the 70’s) and things seemed to work pretty well. Just try it out with them loose and you may find you can comfortably do without, and save an ounce or two.

Then if you get ambitious you can sew up your own packbag out of light fabric and save some significant weight without losing any capacity.

Casey,

Nice documentation. Some thoughts…

Actually the later versions of the Trailwise packs had load lifters, but as David said, they should only be a couple inches or so above the shoulder straps to work, so yours probably can’t be located properly. Trailwise actually connected the load lifters in the spot that a Kelty attaches the pack straps to the cross bar, and the straps actually attached to the bottom of the frame running behind the mesh band.

The Serac Expedition bags have side pockets on the bottom section, plus on long pocket like the Tioga, but the bag is larger and heavier than the regular Serac.

When the Kelty’s were my go to packs, I usually didn’t use the top cross bar and I always took out the frame that holds the top of the bag open. Yes, we used to try and save weight. I now leave them attached, as I don’t want to misplace or lose them.

I would keep the old mesh… lighter and well, original. Just my opinion.

Can you use the metal cam-lock buckle on the new hip belt? Those were the best ever, and Kelty used to sell the buckle separately and people would install them on different brands of packs. They are now highly sought after collector items.

No discussion of Kelty packs is complete without mentioning their real-world ability to handle large heavy expedition weights.  I have found out the hard way that all my Kelty packs failed me at weights above 65 lbs—due to Sagging and tremendous hipbelt pain.  I have found that these packs are just not designed to carry long winter trips loads in the 70+ lb range.  The pack sags, the bane of most packs with significant weight.  And to me the whole point of carrying a large external pack such as a Kelty is for long trips w/o resupply.

The following are some of my old Kelty packs on various trip.  This one shows the rare Kelty Ultra Tioga pack on the right on Haoe Peak in the Slickrock wilderness of NC.  My buddy Johnny B is on the left.  I let him borrow my Ultra while I used a nice Dana Terraplane in red.  The Ultra Tioga killed my hips with any amount of real-world weight.

This pic shows a closeup of the Ultra Tioga on the Nutbuster Upper Slickrock Creek trail.  Kelty went wild designing this pack but really, who has used it??

I also owned and still own the Kelty 50th Anniversary pack as shown here with my backpacking buddy Hootyhoo using it on a trip up Brookshire Creek trail in TN.  He never could get it to ride right with weight and had the same sagging problem.

Here’s an old vintage Kelty pack I saw on a recent backpacking trip into the mountains of NC.

Back in 2000 I took out a married couple into Pisgah NF in NC and the woman used a Kelty kid carrier as shown.

“AS for the “lifter” straps – give it go without them. We didn’t have them at all in the olden times (like the 70’s) and things seemed to work pretty well. Just try it out with them loose and you may find you can comfortably do without, and save an ounce or two.”

My understanding is that on external frame packs, the goal of the straps is not to “lift” the load up more onto your shoulders, but rather to pull it down onto your hips more and closer in, different from the “lifter” effect on internal frame packs.  Hence why I just call them load adjustment straps.  I do find them helpful in their current location, though it is really a lot higher up than need be.  I think ideal is about a 45 degree angle or a bit less up from the shoulder, but I’m no expert…  The only problem with them being attached as high up as I have them is that I have to pull down rather hard to get the desired effect, whereas when they are lower, like on my Tioga, it is easier to cinch them.  I don’t mind an extra ounce, and do appreciate them being there, even as they are.  The other option is to attach them to the top of the bar that the shoulder straps are pinned to the bottom of, using the same pins – this is how the pack was delivered to me and gives at most an inch between.  In that configuration, they didn’t seem to offer any advantage at all.

“Then if you get ambitious you can sew up your own packbag out of light fabric and save some significant weight without losing any capacity.”

That was my original plan – I thought a Serac made of Dyneema Gridstop X would be interesting.  But the green nylon and cordura has grown on me and the stock setup has worked out surprisingly well for my needs.  The only thing that doesn’t fit into the pack quite comfortably are my tent poles and RidgeRest pads.  I am probably going to switch to Exped Downmats and the tent on top leaves plenty of room in the main compartment for food.

Enhancements I would make if I were to go down the custom packbag route, would be to add a couple more side pockets lower down like the Serac Expedition has, replace two of the upper side pockets with a long pocket, like the Tioga has but probably on both sides, add an extension sleeve with drawcord to the top like the Tioga has, use buckles and webbing rather than cords and cordlocks for the main lid, and adding strap attachment points to the top of the lid as the Tioga has.

“Can you use the metal cam-lock buckle on the new hip belt? Those were the best ever, and Kelty used to sell the buckle separately and people would install them on different brands of packs. They are now highly sought after collector items.”

I can – the width of the webbing is identical.  Since the cam lock buckle includes it’s own tensioning setup though, I think it would mean not using the Scherer Cinch metal loops that enable pulling the belts forward to cinch as well.  That is certainly an option on my list to consider.  A part of me wants to replace every bit of plastic on the harness with metal, but I must admit that the plastics are very good quality, significantly better than the equivalent components on the Tioga.

The Cache Hauler harness also has load adjustment straps on the sides of the hip belt like many modern packs (you can see them in the second picture in my first post), which are a nice addition, but for some reason, each one has a huge buckle rather than a simple tightening mechanism.  Not sure why you’d want buckles on them.

“I have found out the hard way that all my Kelty packs failed me at weights above 65 lbs—due to Sagging and tremendous hipbelt pain.  I have found that these packs are just not designed to carry long winter trips loads in the 70+ lb range.”

In my picture with the Tioga above, I had a 75lb load.  We hiked only about 3 miles out (on the AT) to camp out for winter storm Jonas, but it was a MUCH more pleasant trip compared to when I tried one time to carry that much weight with a Deuter ACT Lite 65+10.  I took way too much food that trip, and ended up shuttling about 15-20 pounds of my load up a tree to pick up on the return trip after feeling like dying about 3 miles in, then ate as much as I could fit as the trip went on.  Even with the lightened load, I ended up with with badly chafed hips and shoulders.  The Tioga on the other hand carried the weight pleasantly.  It was heavy and tiresome, but I didn’t feel uncomfortable and could have kept going for many more miles.  We ended up hiking back having to snowshoe through 30 inches of snow, with my load reduced by maybe a pound or two of food weight, and while the trekking was difficult with that much soft snow, the pack was comfortable and not a problem.  I will say that the Cache Hauler hip belt would have made it even more comfortable, as it has very thick and good wrap-around padding.  I guess different packs work for different people, but for me the Tioga at least has worked surprisingly well, and the Serac feels amazing with the upgraded harness.  I have yet to get it out for a trek though.

I’d still love to get my hands on an Ultra Tioga one day if I ever manage to find one, though I’m feeling quite content with the Serac now so probably won’t keep looking as hard as I was.

I really don’t like the 50th Anniversary Edition pack.  I can’t speak to it’s load-handling ability but the overall design of the pack has a lot of flaws.  Why, for instance, are the shoulder straps stitched to the packbag fabric rather than being attached to the frame?  And while the frame is the size of an external frame, since most of it is sleeved by the packbag, it’s inaccessible and seems to remove the advantage of external frames.  The packbag and harness are also attached to the frame with a mind-boggling dizzying array of complex straps and buckles.  If you dare to disassemble things, be careful to take a lot of pictures and notes or you’ll never figure out how to get it back together!  I also take offense at any pack that uses Velcro as a primary means of holding things together…I just don’t trust it to not fail in a moment of need.  The manner in which the load “levitators” attach with a velcroed sleeve on each end is particularly dodgy.  I also don’t understand why the pack is one HUGE cavern, with no separation for the sleeping bag compartment, which is strangely accessed via a small drawstring closure on one side rather than a large zipper, so it would be quite difficult to actually use since A> the opening is small, and B> everything else in the pack will shift down as soon as the sleeping bag is removed.  Maybe I will take some more detailed pictures of that pack later.  My one concern about the Ultra Tioga is that it came from a similar era in Kelty’s history, where they seemed to be throwing a bunch of “gee whiz” features on packs – at least in the case of the 50th Anniversary pack, I don’t like the result at all.  But it is quite an interesting pack, in any case.

Tipi, do you know which Kelty carrier that is in that picture?  We have two – a Kelty TC 2.0, very small but quite comfortable.  No cargo capacity so only really good for day hikes or walks around town.  And a Kelty Expedition, a rather interesting carrier.  There’s a lot I like about it, but at the same time, some aspects I don’t.  Some of the padding and materials used are really not very ideal.  Ultimately, my wife still prefers the Deuter Kid Comfort III over anything else.  The problem with all the child carriers is that they only have cargo space on the bottom, and way back behind the child, so the weight distribution is not very good.  They are also obscenely heavy.  The Expedition entertainingly has two rows of daisy chains on the back of the top *and* bottom parts.  I can’t imagine ever using those.

The Kelty Expedition:

The Deuter Kid Comfort III, right before heading home from the winter storm Jonas trip:

Super Tioga manual

Super Tioga fitting instructions:

No discussion of Kelty packs is complete without mentioning their real-world ability to handle large heavy expedition weights. I have found out the hard way that all my Kelty packs failed me at weights above 65 lbs—due to Sagging and tremendous hipbelt pain. I have found that these packs are just not designed to carry long winter trips loads in the 70+ lb range. The pack sags, the bane of most packs with significant weight. And to me the whole point of carrying a large external pack such as a Kelty is for long trips w/o resupply.

Tipi,

I don’t have your experience of carrying 70+ lbs loads. However, I have used my Serac Expedition many times when I needed to carry 4 or more gallons of water on desert trips, and total pack weight slightly exceeded 60lbs. No problem with the pack at all. I have circumnavigated Joshua Tree National Park several times with this pack. Kelty made two frames prior to the Tioga, the Backpacker and the Mountaineer, which was designed for heavier loads.

That 3/4 pack picture you posted is a D4 model. I bought the same pack in 1971 and still use it today. It has traveled thousands of miles with no problems, including a couple 6 month walks, where my ‘real world’ loads never topped 50lbs.

Kelty packs were used exclusively on the first American ascent of Mt. Everest’s West Ridge in 1963, the 1966 National Geographic Antarctica expedition, and the 1975 American ascent of K2.

Most of us here are not going to haul a 75lb pack, which is more than half of my body weight. I have done many, many trips in the Sierra of two week duration without resupply and never had to carry that kind of weight. Even a two week stint one winter in the Sierra, I was around 60lbs.  Years ago I would run into hikers that would brag about how heavy their pack was, as if it were some sort of testerone competition.

Of course, even 50 years ago I was using the lightest gear that matched the conditions. This kind of thinking is the audience here on BPL.

I found some weights of just the stripped frame and packbag alone (inclusive of the stabilizing bar at the top) from when I had everything torn apart:

• Serac XL frame (without top bar): 720g (1lb 9.3oz)
• Serac L frame (without top bar): 680g (1lb 8.0oz)
• Serac L/XL top bar: 120-128g (4.2-4.5oz) – identical size but 8g difference between two
• Serac XL bag: 1lb 15.5oz
• Serac L bag: 1lb 14.5oz

Here is a drawing from the 1974 version of The New Complete Walker showing the Trailwise shoulder straps and the adjustment strap, if anyone is interested.

Interesting. But you guys should be posting on BPH; not BPL

billy

Interesting. But you guys should be posting on BPH; not BPL

Are you sure? The last few times I took my D4 on a trip my base weight was well under 10lbs. I doubt anyone would argue that isn’t a lightweight kit.

Funny, considering most of my gear is as light weight as possible for the needs I have, and I have no desire to carry excess or heavier-than-necessary gear for it.  I thought this was the place for such discussion?  For a pack that can comfortably carry over 50 pounds when you need to (such as when one is carrying basically all of the gear and food for three on trips longer than 2 or 3 days, as in my case), a 5 pound pack is really not that bad.  The last internal frame pack able to carry such weight decently that I ended up returning was over 7 pounds.  Nick’s D4 is only 3.5lb.

You can’t expect an SUL kit to work for every situation.  We have 3 tents that fit us – one is 2lb, another 5lb, and the third 10lb.  I wouldn’t be foolish enough to carry the 10lb tent on a summer trip, but neither would I put our lives at risk trying to subject one of the lighter options to 30″ snowfall and expected blizzard conditions.  There are always tradeoffs, and you have to balance them out for every trip you are considering.

Nick, that’s a great book – I read that same 1974 edition over the winter, and a couple weeks ago I found an original 1968 version of the book at a local used book store, so now I’m reading that.  I really like Colin Fletcher’s attitude and personality.

Here’s a similar, if not identical, pack.  This picture allows you to see the frame better:

Interesting that Trailwise crossed the shoulder straps and connected them down at the bottom with only a pin behind in the center holding them in place.  It appears that on that pack Trailwise definitely intended the shoulder straps to go down farther behind the shoulders, then have them reliant on the load adjustment straps to hold them in place.  With the Kelty Serac, on the other hand, there were originally no such straps, and I believe the attachment point of the shoulder straps themselves should be higher up, close to the top of the shoulders, rather than farther down one’s back (at least based on various old pictures I’ve found).  You certainly know better than I do, though.

I thought I’d chime in and openly state that I’m another proud user of external frame packs. I sold my Kelty (because I found it far too volumetrically huge), but I have been using an Alite Hatcher. It’s even burlier than a Kelty.

I think it’s perfectly fine if one loves an externally framed pack. I definitely pack closer to SUL weights, but the ease with which one can pack an external framed pack is simply far too convenient. Bear can? No problem. 10 extra lbs of water? Fine with that, too. And you don’t have to play Tetris every time you want to get everything back into your pack.

It seems like a lot of people like to state that external framed packs are for heavier loads, but what’s often forgotten that is that an UL load in an external frame pack feels like absolutely nothing. 20lbs in my Hatcher is far more comfortable than 20lb in my Kumo.