Stove O Ring Upgrade?

[Ian]

I’ve no idea if this would work or fit, but I was listening to a mechanic who says he’s stopped using black o rings altogether and that he’s been really happy with air conditioning o rings from a durability standpoint and low temperature performance.

From the listing description

“Manufactured from premium quality (hydrogenated nitrile butadiene) rubber material, which is resistant to oil, gas, water, alcohol solvents, high temperature and high pressure.”

AUTOUTLET 270PCS O Rings Kit 18 Sizes Car Air Conditioning O-Ring Assortment Set with Valve Core Removal Tool for Door, Window, Electric Appliance, Bearing, Pump, Roller Auto, Home Appliances (Green) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CTNMVQM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_GXG0KVNYBC6EPVWRBZQ3

 

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

The color of the O-Ring does not mater, it’s the material

 

From Roger Caffin

Yes, if you cremate the Viton material it may give off some nasties – but the OPERATIONAL temperature for Viton tops out at 250 C. Other O-ring materials are not that good; some are much worse. Anyhow, you should never get the base of your stove above 100 C: you could overheat the canister (big bang). I will add that Viton O-rings are what EVERY good stove manufacturer uses: they are not confined to just one brand. I recommend you do NOT use anything else.

The standard O-ring for an upright canister stove with a screw-thread is an Imperial one: BS-011
BS011 ID: 5/16″ (7.94 mm) OD: 7/16″ (11.11 mm) Thick: 0.070″ (1.78 mm)
Other type of stoves or canisters (Campingaz, Xtreme) use other sorts.

[Ian]

“The color of the O-Ring does not mater, it’s the material”

You don’t say…

[Ian]

The operating specs.   Do your own due diligence before attempted use, of course.

Manufactured from Premium Quality (Hydrogenated Nitrile Butadiene) Rubber Material, which is Resistant to Oil, Gas, Water, Alcohol Solvents, High Temperature and High Pressure. HNBR Can be Formulated to Meet Application Temperatures Ranging between -45 Degrees C and 165 Degrees C, and HNBR is Classified by ASTM as DH-type Polymer

[Ian]

What appears to be a key difference between Viton and HNBR is that Viton has a much higher temperature threshold, some reporting 400*f-600*f.   None of my o rings are getting that hot.   The Achilles heel of Viton per multiple tech sheet and articles is its low temperature performance below 0*.

Whether or not this was a factor in Iago’s Kovea Spider fire ball, and would HNBR be better suited for use in winter while still being within spec during the summer, I don’t know.

one quote from and a link to a fact sheet here

Viton™ /FKM/FPM is superior to nitrile in almost all situations, excluding operation at sub zero temperatures.

https://www.nes-ips.com/viton-vs-nitrile-o-rings/

[Roger Caffin]

From Apple Rubber Seal Design handbook

Min Temp…Strength…Butane..Propane
Nitrile ……..-40 C……high…….1…….1…UL
Viton.. ……..-29 C……high…….1…….1…UL
Fluorosilicone..-60 C……medium…..2…….2
Neoprene……..-43 C……high…….?…….3
Silicone……..-70 C……medium…..4…….4
Teflon PTFE….-185 C……low……..1…….1
PFA…………-100 C?…..high……?1……?1

1 is best, 4 is worst
‘UL’ means it is a UL rating – very reliable.
Sadly, silicone rubber tends to be a bit porous to butane and propane.
Green Viton is reserved for FDA-approved food use.
The dots are because this stupid editor collapses multiple spaces to one and deletes the tab character.

HTH
Cheers

[James Marco]

Actually, the dye *does* make a small difference. It effects overall strength, flexibility, shattering point, durability and other characteristics of the rubber. Depending on the actual dye & ammount, somewhere between 10-50%. Carbon Black (used in vulcanization) is about the strongest for the cost.

[Ian]

Thanks James.  I didn’t find any literature on that but I’ll take your word for it.

[Ian]

Roger,

I have more questions and don’t pretend to know.   AFAIK HNBR and NBR are both nitriles but HNBR has better performance of the two.

I read through a few fact sheets and skimmed through one peer reviewed article yesterday.   Some of the specs varied between them but the consensus seemed to be that HNBR performed better than Vitol in sub freezing temps.   One fact sheet even noted that Vitol was rated below 0*c but suffered in those temps.

If you need links it’ll take a minute to retrace my steps.

My questions are

Would HMBR with an upper limit of 165*c be an acceptable replacement for Vitol (400-600*c) upper limit, depending on which source you believe?  I very much doubt any of my O rings are getting anywhere near 165*c but I haven’t tested to confirm.

Would the reduced low temperature performance of Vitol o rings be one possible explanation for Iago’s fireball mentioned in another thread, in that case a remote canister stove used in the winter time?

A third and fourth question that can’t be answered here, is it possible that the stove manufacturer shipped it using a lower quality O ring that wasn’t Vitol?  Was it a maintenance issue where it passed a quick visual inspection but was in fact defective?

[Ian]

Adding to my response to James…

In the OP i offhandedly remarked abut a comparison with the black O rings in a car.  Since the discussion was about stoves, I didn’t feel a need to research what material was used in automotive applications other than HNBR (AC o rings) were allegedly superior in durability and cold temperatures.

I wasn’t suggesting that the actual color makes a difference although now that you say it is, I’m interested to know if there’s any reason to be concerned about which color is used.   The HNBR AC o rings at least come in green and purple

[Jerry Adams]

boiling temperature of isobutane is -12 C, so it will never go below that for stove use

theoretically, with some propane in the mix it might go below that

all of your o-rings go well below that temperature

it seems like o-ring failure because of low temperature is unlikely

on the other hand, the space shuttle failed when the o-rings got a little below 0 C, were those o-rings rated for the temperatures in Roger’s (mangled but still readable) table

 

[Ian]

it seems like o-ring failure because of low temperature is unlikely

My guess is that you’re right, which is exactly why I posted my OP as a question and not a statement of fact.

I can tell you that my few experiences with stoves turning into Molotov cocktails were a result of poor maintenance or some other form of operator error, not ambient temperature.  In the 1980s, I had no understanding that they required maintenance at all.  There were no shortage of Boy Scouts going home with melted eyebrows and bandages, myself included.

Since all of these experiences go back five decades, I can’t begin to guess what the o rings were made of when these incidents happened.

There’s also the issue of counterfeit products being found in anything and everything ranging from CAT tourniquets to fasteners used in nuclear reactors.

 

[Eric Blanche]

This thread is why I love bpl, lol.

Will revisit if I ever replace my current o-rings.

 

I don’t believe I have seen it yet in this thread: What size o-ring is needed for the standard canister stove? Are the viton rings readily available? That was one particular issue I had a few years ago when searching.

 

Thanks everyone!

[Roger Caffin]

James – a reference to doco covering the difference between black and green Viton would be appreciated for my education.

Ian – yes, nitriles are generally rated to -40 C while Viton is rated to -29 C.

Would nitrile rated to 165 C be an acceptable substitute for Viton, rated to 250 C? Well, that would of course depend on what the O-ring was being used for.

I am happy to use nitrile on the canister connector on my stoves as the canister never gets hot. But I am just as happy to use Viton (marginally dearer) there as any propane/butane canister at -29 C won’t be emitting any gas!

I would never use nitrile at the stove itself. I have seen a stove body exceed 165 C during testing (once). It was not meant to get that hot, and I shut it down fast. Also, the PFA hose used is rated to 250 C. It seems to me that being conservative here is a Good Thing (TM).

Jerry – just because the BP of isobutane is -12 C does NOT mean the ambient, and the canister, cannot get colder than that! I am sure some BPL members have made breakfast at colder temperatures. Mind you, in the snow I store my canister in my quilt overnight so I can make breakfast.

Eric – normally a BS-011 O-ring is used. PM me if you cannot find these.

Cheers

[Ian]

Eric,

To clear my name, I usually steer away from conversations about hydrostatic head, CLO values, and other technical stuff.

For the most part, I don’t care about the science behind it.  I’m more interested in hearing real world anecdotal experiences from non biased end users who have sufficient experience to weigh in on a product’s qualities.

I do make an exception for stoves however as I don’t like setting myself on fire.  A close second, I don’t like setting other people or the woods on fire.

[Ian]

Roger,

I don’t know that anything will be gleaned from it, in fact I highly doubt it, but I’m ordering some HNBR o rings for my jeep.  It’s easy enough to throw them in the freezer along with some Vitol ones I have on hand to see if there are any differences at 0*f.  I just don’t care to go out below 15*f and I don’t foresee any sub zero temps heading our way between now and spring.

I’m sure it’s all much ado about nothing, but I saw Iago’s photo from the other thread about the same time these O rings were recommended to me, so I figured, what the hay!

[Ian]

To add

propane/butane canister at -29 C won’t be emitting any gas!

And I definitely wouldn’t be there to witness it!  I’ve been in colder but only because someone was paying me.

I’ll have to go through my search history and find the fact sheet or paper.  One of them mentioned that while Vitol was rated to a lower temperature, HNBR out performed it below 0*c.  There wasn’t any other context for me to understand if it hardens up and potentially rolls out of position, or what the concern would be.

I don’t have any way to know the percentages but I’m guessing a large portion of O ring applications are things like fuel injectors or other parts that are bolted into position and then never move until they are serviced years later, but there are stove fittings, hoses, and other applications where they see some friction from use and may get moved out of position in sub optimal conditions.

Dunno how/if any of that applies here.

 

[Jerry Adams]

I’ve singed my eyebrows before.  With white gas stove.  There was definitely some user error involved.  Young males are lucky to survive.

My Coleman F1 exponent stove has the property that if I screw it onto a canister in the evening, then leave it over night, if it gets cold, all the butane leaks out.  This might have something to do with an o-ring getting stiff.  Maybe, more than that, some metal parts are shrinking so there’s less pressure on the o-ring.

Even if the temperature stays above the spec’d minimum for an o-ring, it can get more stiff or whatever, and then be more likely to fail.

The space shuttle o-rings failed even though the temperature was just a little below freezing.

Maybe an o-ring for a stove that’s rated for a lower temperature would be less likely to fail.

[James Marco]

Roger, try this one…
https://www.intechopen.com/books/advanced-elastomers-technology-properties-and-applications/pigment-and-dye-modified-fillers-as-elastomeric-additives

[Ian]

James Marco delivers the goods!

BPL is certainly great at coughing up some really obscure but potentially relevant information

Thank you James!

IN YOUR FACE JON!

[Ian]

Thanks Jerry.  What I think I’ve learned from all this is that when backpacking or camping in cold temperatures, I’ll stick to food catered and prepared by someone else.  I’m far too delicate to set myself on fire at this stage of my life.

[Iago Vazquez]

The problem with winter camping is that the forecasts don’t always match the reality you will experience. I cancel trips if lows are at 0F, particularly if camping at exposed spots. Last year, one night was supposed to be about 10F. It turns out that it was -10F at 9 am, so I am certain that it was much colder at night.

A couple of years ago the projected low was supposed to be 5F. We confirmed the forecast 3 or 4 hrs before we got to the trailhead. Ended up being -25F that night.

Need to know that I can trust the hardware to work as expected.

At least this past weekend the temps were as projected… :)

So for a winter stove, Viton O rings seem insufficient if their low ceiling is -25C/-13F. Looks like Nitriles would be better choice…

[Ian]

So for a winter stove, Viton O rings seem insufficient if their low ceiling is -25C/-13F. Looks like Nitriles would be better choice…

Right now there are Svea owners reading through this thread, shaking their heads, and calling us fools for even monkeying around with this stuff in the winter.

[Ian]

Iago,

It sounds like you have access to colder temperatures than I do.  If you happen to have a chance to use them, please report back

[Jerry Adams]

What I think I’ve learned from all this is that when backpacking or camping in cold temperatures, is to go with Doug and let him do the cooking

[Author]

Posts