stove for winter

[James Marco]

The heat shunt down to the canister is a great idea. The major problem I have with it is that there is no safety. As the canister picks up heat, it increases in pressure and you get more flame, too. Anybody see the problem with this? This is unlike the Caffin Stove. I usually set up a 3/4 wind screen around the pot and stove pretty much eliminating most thermal feedback. The old SVEA is more reliable in very cold weather, but it is a lot heavier. In winter I dislike fiddling with stuff. Even the Caffin stove is a bit of a fiddle since I have to regulate the burn to start. But, really, it is no worse than dumping a bit of fuel on the SVEA. Attaching things to the canister works fine. But I reserve this for the few times when I would get caught out at cold (<30F) temps. I don’t usually bother because the Caffin stove fits the bill at about 3-1/4oz for the stove, 1.5oz for the windscreen, ~4oz for a 1liter pot and top and ~12oz for a can of gas. It overlaps what any topper would do. The JetBoil stove is a lot heavier at 12.5-14oz without counting fuel. Even the WindPro is a lighter option than the JetBoil and requires no fiddling.

Mostly, it depends on what you have when you go. If you have less than a half dozen stoves in your gear room, then you likely have a fairly limited choice, say a couple canisters, a couple alcohol and a couple WG stoves. The heat shunt will work. If you have three or more of each, you can start making selections. One of these choices will likely be lighter and perform as well (and won’t require constant monitoring.)

[Roger Caffin]

If you have less than a half dozen stoves in your gear room,

Gasp shock horror!

——

What is really interesting is Bob’s comment about how fast the heat shunt works at getting heat into the canister, and that it has worked with canisters which are nearly empty.

Cheers

 

[Bob Moulder]

The major problem I have with it is that there is no safety. As the canister picks up heat, it increases in pressure and you get more flame, too. Anybody see the problem with this?

Never has it overheated despite intentional abuse to try to induce it, as indicated in a previous post in this thread. Tested with both regulated and unregulated burners. And there have never been any flare-ups nor overproduction of flames. The flame setting is remarkably stable no matter the fuel valve position.

Why this is from an engineering standpoint, I don’t know. But I’ve speculated that the dimensions of the copper strip and the amount of area in contact with the canister create a “Goldilocks” condition where it gets warm enough to do the job but never too hot. Early on, I was extremely paranoid about overheating, using 2 digital thermometers on the canisters and constantly doing the “touch test” to make sure I wasn’t creating an “alpine bomb”. I conducted quite a few tests before I was comfortable running the stoves without thermometers on the canisters. When I did the intentional overheating test I was really, really careful.

If you faithfully reproduce my setup you can test all this for yourself. I would be happy to send you one if you PM with address.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bob

Do you have all the data from those tests, and some photos?

Seems to me that this should be converted into a proper technical article for publication here. I am happy to help with the writing and editing if needed.

Cheers

[email protected]

 

[Bob Moulder]

Thanks much, Roger! That’s a good idea.

When I originally started working on this concept I made only rudimentary notes for specific temperatures and ambient conditions encountered, publishing results here on BPL as forum posts, of course. And it was pretty much the same as I proceeded to tweak the system and to do my deck and field tests, publishing basic data, descriptions and photos as I went along, and some YouTube videos as well. These should be relatively easy to find now with the new and improved search function at BPL.

However, now that the setup has been tested and developed enough that it’s ready for prime time, perhaps this would be a good opportunity to pull all that disparate information together and put it in one place. It is easy enough (depending upon how many parameters are being recorded!) to re-run tests to collect data a little more rigorously than I did before, and to make some better photos. I would have been a lot more disciplined with the whole endeavor had I known it might end up being anything worthy of an article.

Your articles are exemplary templates, so I will get a feel for how you structured those, and look at some others as well. Fortunately we are finally starting to experience some winter weather here so I will be able to re-run some of those tests soon.

[Roger Caffin]

Excellent, thanks Bob. I look forward  to seeing it.

Cheers

 

[Bob Moulder]

Pure n-butane for winter? Yes!!

Photo of BRS3000-T operating just fine at 13°F (-10.5°C) with a fuel canister containing only n-butane, NO propane and NO isobutane.

 

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I sold my heavy MSR Dragonfly. Simmered better than ANY other liquid fuel stove but too heavy.

So I bought the MSR Whisperlite Universal 3 fuel stove, canister, white gas (petrol) or kerosene. It’s fine in white gas mode for all winter use.

WINTER STOVE BASE: (keeps stove from sinking into the snow.)

I made a 3/16″ thick painted plywood base for my MSR Whisperlite Universal stove. I used two coats of silver engine paint.

To hold the legs in place on the base I used screen door pivoting “clamps” used to hold screens in. Adjust to proper height with washers and tighten =enough to make them stay in place when holding the stove legs.

 

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bob

I take it that you had refilled the Primus canister from the butane canister? You did not mention this.

I have serious doubts that the canister you show did not contain at least some iso-butane. The label says ‘butane’, not n-butane. Previous research reported here at BPL suggested that many ‘butane’ canisters actually contain an unpurified mix of iso- and n- butane, possibly in about equal parts.

It cost real $$ to separate iso- from n- butane, and the price of those cheap canisters does not encourage me to think any separation was done.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Eric

I agree, plywood works just fine.
I use 1/8″ 3-ply, with a bit of linseed oil for protection. So far, so good.
I use micro-stakes to secure the stove in place, as mine is so UL. But 1.6 mm Ti wire is very light.

Cheers

[DAN-Y]

360 degree heat shunt from insulated ground plate up to pot. Shunt encircles pot half way up sides of pot, Remote canister will be used. Hose connection to stove will be well insulated to protect ‘O’ ring. Photo is not final set-up, just to show shunt extending to pot. Waiting on delivery of Kovea Spider ;-) It’s going to work perfectly ;-)

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Ralph,

Try to never introduce your wife as, “My current wife.” Tends to make for frosty relationships. ;o)

Sounds as though your ex may have been mechanically inclined, something that is more dependent on a higher testosterone level. (No kidding, I taught psychology and there is a solid body of information to back that up.)

Anyway, I’m off to make a Moulder strip for my Brunton Crux burner. I needed this thread as a reminder. Oh, yes, and a cozy as well. (Maybe the missus could crochet me one out of fiberglass. Jus’ sayin’…)

[Jerry C]

I am constantly amazed at the depth of conversation on this subject. I can’t help but chuckle at the lengthy discussions regarding the merits of canisters in cold weather as opposed to alcohol in hot weather as opposed to “whispers”, “jetboils”, etc., etc.  Here is the advice of a 76 year old guy who has been backpacking his entire life (from age 12). The original backpacking stove has always been, and still is, the best. For over 60 years I have been carrying a Svea 123 white gas stove and burning Coleman fuel….it has never failed me.  I have used this stove in sub zero temperatures, in the swamps of south Georgia, at the height of summer the depths of winter and at considerable altitudes in the west. Regardless of temperature or altitude the little fellow never fails to fire up instantly and lend its reassuring roar to mealtime. On two separate occasions I have been sitting in a group of others when the “O” ring of a whisper lite has failed, resulting in a group of folks sitting in a literal pool of burning gasoline and I have witnessed the failure of several other “high tech” modern stoves. On more than one occasion I have offered to lend my trusty little stove to some unfortunate person whose “modern” stove failed to perform.  If you want to be sure you are carrying the most reliable stove in existence go to Ebay and for about $100 order a Svea 123…you will never regret it.

[Gary Dunckel]

So, Jerry C, just how much does your Svea weigh, complete with the fuel? Some of us have come up with very light canister setups which work perfectly in sub-zero winter temperatures. For some background information, try searching the “Moulder Strip” concept, or read my article on how to keep a canister warm in cold winter temps. I don’t doubt that the Svea is a worthy stove, but most of us here at BPL value weight savings. Just sayin’…

[James Marco]

Well, I love my SVEA, also. Rugged, reliable, and durable as hell. The only time it has ever failed was when I ran out of fuel due to a miscalculation (forgot to figure on a second person one time, and “figered” correctly for ONE burn per day…oops!)
Generally it gets about 1/2oz (14gm or so) per liter. A full tankfull (advertised as 4oz) is actually a bit larger since it is a BY WIEGHT number, I think. It is hard to measure due to all the wicking inside. Anyway, I have gotten 11-13L on a single full tank full many times in the summer. But each liter took about 12-15min or so. This is comparable to all canister stoves except for timing. Even the Caffin V1 only got slightly better at around 13gm/L in around 9min. Anyway, I call it a wash as far as efficiency is concerned, as long as the stove is always on low. A 16floz bottle will last about two weeks. An 220gm can will last about two weeks. Both weigh about the same at 13oz vs 12.5oz. So, efficiency and fuel is about the same with very small differences (10%) even with canister stoves.

Weight is another story. SVEA’s are heavy. The stove (sans cup) comes in at 17.5oz. This is really about the same as other WG stoves. And it lacks power. A typical SVEA only produces about 4500BTU on high(or around 1.5KW/hr.) A typical WG stove will do double that easily. So, you pay for the reliability, durability in overall weight and loss of power. It is still my best stove for winter, early spring, late fall conditions, though. If you cannot afford a failure, I would highly recommend a SVEA, despite the weight. As many here already know, I am dedicated to UL weights, but still bring my SVEA because of lack of fiddle factor. Not bad for a hundred year old design.

[Roger Caffin]

So, efficiency and fuel is about the same with very small differences (10%) even with canister stoves.
This is very reasonable for hydrocarbon fuels. The weight of the fuel is largely determined by the carbon atoms: they are much heavier than the hydrogen atoms and give off more heat when burnt. After that, it depends on the the size of the flame and how much heat (hot gas) is lost up the side of the pot.

A canister stove can be a lot more powerful than a white gas stove, but that is because there is a problem getting enough air or oxygen into the flame with white gas. It does not really affect the efficiency at low-medium power. Both the Svea 123 and the Optimus 8R are both reliable lower-power white gas stoves – and both unfortunately very heavy.

For Preppers: a couple of gallons of kero and an XGK stove might keep you going for a looong time.

Cheers

[DAN-Y]

For Preppers: a couple of gallons of kero and an XGK stove might keep you going for a looong time.

 

Dual purpose, used for pounding in tent pegs and boat anchors  I want one!

Recently I had ordered a Kovea Spider and the order was eventually cancelled and money refunded. I emailed the seller and here is their reply:

Hello Dan Yeruski
Thank you for choosing1 of Kovea Spider Stove, Small, Silver [Sports] and Amorshop! We appreciate your choice, and we will do everything in our power to ensure your full satisfaction with the product quality and customer service.
First of all, we give you deep apology for your inconvenience.
All International orders are subject to customs inspections. These charges are determined by the country to which the package is shipped to and payment is the responsibility of the customer, not Amorshop.
Your order product was returned back to the sender because of customs clearance issue and Amorshop paid all cost.
This is certainly we don’t want our customer to experience.
we cancelled your order and refunded full price to you to deal with your issue promptly.
If you need further assistance please feel free to contact us back if you still have any more questions or clarifications, and we will be more than happy to assist you. As a Support Associate your satisfaction is my top priority, It’s my pleasure to assist you today and I am glad that I was able to help you with your concern.
Thank you and have a great day.

 

[Jerry C]

James… Thanks for backing me up on the choice of the SVEA for ultimate reliability and dependable performance…If I have learned anything in all the 65 years I have been doing this, it’s the overriding importance of reliability. And, true, this may sometimes involve sacrifices in weight and/or cost… When I am 25 miles from nowhere and it’s cold, raining, snowing or even in the height of summer, and an essential piece of equipment fails, it matters not one iota how much money you saved on that piece of gear or the fact that it is “ultralight”… If it doesn’t work it isn’t worth a nickel. If it’s a little heavy and it works, I take it…If it’s expensive but reliable, I buy it.  I’ll make up the slight weight disadvantage of the SVEA somewhere else in my pack…maybe bring one less nalgene bottle of Scotch  :)

Jerry Cram  [email protected]

 

[DAN-Y]

Ok, I;ll go a different route.

All International orders are subject to customs inspections. These charges are determined by the country to which the package is shipped to and payment is the responsibility of the customer, not Amorshop.
Your order product was returned back to the sender because of customs clearance issue and Amorshop paid all cost.

Roger, is it true, stove orders shipped  from Australia to the USA might be rejected because of customs clearance issues and you will have to pay for it’s return??

[Roger Caffin]

Roger, is it true, stove orders shipped from Australia to the USA might be rejected because of customs clearance issues and you will have to pay for it’s return??
I have not delved into the legal aspects of this. On the international registered post shipping label we use there is some legalese and some tick boxes for how to return the package if it cannot be delivered, but as far as I know the vast overwhelming majority of international mail just sails on without hassles. I have never had any problems.

The stoves I sell are all beta-test models. They have all been fired up and operated for some time, with me looking for problems, and are therefore ‘used’. You can see this from the oxide marks on the titanium parts – which do indeed reach glowing red heat. Since they have been used for some time, I label them as such.

Cheers

[DAN-Y]

On the international registered post shipping label we use there is some legalese and some tick boxes for how to return the package if it cannot be delivered, 

When I first starting to ship stoves Internationally, I experienced loss/non arrival of packages. I stopped shipping International for a time and then resumed by changing the boxes ticked and item description on the post shipping label. I did not select the return of package due to cost of return. Never had a problem after that.

[James Marco]

Jerry, yeah, no problem. I love the little guy. And it does indeed work every time, despite the weight.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Dan

Yes, it is a bit different when the stove costs $150. Return becomes realistic. Low cost items – tricky.

As for non-arrival – I only post ‘registered mail signature required’. I had one case where the buyer said he had not received the stove. A check at my end showed that the parcel had been delivered and signed for. A quick email and the buyer realised that he had been away for a few days and his neighbour had signed for the parcel – and then forgotten to tell him it had arrived! No worries.

Cheers

[Eric Blumensaadt]

BEST OF BOTH WORLDS:

My MSR Whisperlite Universal has inverted canister or white gas or kerosene modes.

So this week I ski-skinned up to 9,500 ft. and used the white gas option. Great for a 2 night trip for melting snow, boiling water and frying an omelette in my little one egg skillet. No simmer control (sigh) so you have to monitor your cooking closely.

I’m just too chicken to attempt to use the inverted canister mode in winter – so far.

For summer car camping I use the inverted butane canister mode for controllable flame adjustment. But other than winter it is NOT a backpacking stove. For that I have a Brunton Crux canister-top stove.

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