Staying warm in the wet and cold

Your question seems obviously directed towards Out For The Day types like dayhikers etc.  They usually always have an “out” no matter how bad the conditions, meaning:  They get back to a car or a shelter before sundown.

In such a scenario there’s no reason you can’t bulk up on heavier clothing underneath your rain shell.  It all might get soaked (like fleece or merino) but so what?  You’re not gonna be pulling a 2 or 3 week trip in such conditions.

“Planning to camp” makes such conditions tolerable as you’re carrying everything you need on your back—so when mild hypothermia comes you can “set up where you stand”, i.e. put up your tent/shelter and get into dry clothing.

“Planning to camp” also makes sense for Dayhikers although most of them never carry enough gear to spend the night.  Maybe they should.

These are exactly the kinds of conditions I hike in in the fall in the Cascades and Olympics, maybe just a touch warmer, but definitely the wet is true.  I used to hike in merino wool layers, but have shifted to synthetics for moving layers, as they seem to move moisture better–I sweat heavy.  Down does not make it into my kit at all.  Fleece is forming the majority of my insulating layers. I’ve thought about synthetic puffies, but so far haven’t been able to justify the expense.  Light synthetic top under a shell, synthetic baselayer under a skirt +/- rain skirt are my moving layers.  I’ve modified a crew neck Melanzana fleece to a full zip top, and another one to a full zip vest.  I may hike with the vest, then if needed in the cold layer the full jacket top over top.

I know that ultralight dictates that you don’t take extra clothes, but I have been hypothermic before, and it wasn’t fun.  I always carry dry layers that I can change into.  One hike this summer that was cool and damp I hiked up into a cloud to make camp.  I put up my tent in my original layers and got water without changing.  I put on my fleece over my damp layers under my rain jacket to cook under my umbrella, then got into my tent and stripped everything down to change to dry layers.  It probably would have been smarter to crawl into my Zpacks Duplex right away, change, then cook in the vestibule, but I’ve been wary of using a stove close to the tent.  I did end up shivering in my quilt for a while as it was.  I also had had a great big fall earlier on the trail, slipping on wet rocks, and ending up on my A$$ in the stream, with nice big gashes out of my knees, so I was more wet than usual (can’t recommend the tread on the current Altra Women’s Timpanogos–NO traction on wet rocks, period). I do carry a down sleeping bag, but for jackets I just have given up on down, too worried about the damp conditions reducing loft.

In crappy weather like this I now emphasize my extremities- keeping hands, feet and head warm.  This means rain mitts over some type of light fleece or merino glove and a beanie +/- a buff, and EE Sidekicks for my feet once I’m in my tent.  I can generally hike down to 15-20F wearing a merino baselayer and windshirt and be warm as long as I’m moving, but if I stop a fleece or synthetic puffy will be needed pronto.

I gotta wonder if the hollow fiber fleece would absorb moisture into the microscopically hollow fibers.

It is a warmer fleece due to the dead air trapped in tehfibers.

??

Based on my experiences in similar conditions and slow because of health issues I have to say it is better to be warm and wet than cold and wet, and this is what used to be said in Scotland and Englands Lakes district while I was there. I have just switched my walking layer to a shelled Alpha top and choose my base layer on the conditions at the time but if it was drizzling and I was walking slow I think I would be using a LW shell. Certainly I would have a LW insulating layer in my pack, a Nanopuff or equivalent at the minimum and as above I would take care of the extremities and carry overmittens as noted above. Worth carrying a couple of pounds of insurance in the form of that extra warm layer and a couple of thousand calories.

At a minimum I would wear a second UL  windproof layer, not a 35CFM layer but a proper windproof if not using a shell. Given the constraints of the OP the fabric of my Alpha top would not be enough protection being a 35CFM material

As an UltraLighter, I never use fleece. My dry layers are always dry, all my down goes in a bag at the bottom of my pack. They are not available to use while hiking. I carry a wool sweater and my rain jacket. Wet conditions are always nasty when the temps start dropping. Down to freezing, I just use my hiking shirt and rain jacket. In colder, I add my sweater over my hiking shirt and slip on my rain jacket over that. This has held me to 20f while hiking, even though I eventually get wet. When I get to a camp spot, I set up my tarp and toss in my dry bag, get water (often a 1/4mi hike or less) I start up my stove and put it under the tarp and crawl in. The water is boiling when I get changed, in goes my supper for a minute and off it goes, placing my hot pot on my quilt with my hat over it. The little heat under the tarp means it is fairly warm. My down jacket is around me and I set up the cloths line for my hiking cloths…spacing them out according to length. At 20F, I sometimes move my pot to the foot, and wrap the rest around my torso and legs. I am good to about 20F like this, but the morning can be a bitch. My cloths are drained but always wet.

As you noted… 30-40F, raining, with variable activity is tough. Like others, I find synthetic better than merino for the base: my choice is Patagonia Thermal Weight.  I can raise and drop the hood to help compensate for variable activity.

One option is wearing a poncho which allows changing  mid layer without exposing yourself to weather. I did this for several years switching from no mid layer when active to either a fleece a light synthetic puffy,  This worked reasonable well… but ponchos and me just don’t get along.

My solution is that I use the most breathable rainshell I can find (gore shake dry or eVENT). I deal with variable activity level by keeping activity level fairly even, e.g. continuous movement and going a bit slower than normal on uphills and faster on down/level ground.

I have experimented with a synthetic puffy placed over the rain gear when I stop… works for done in a day but not so well on multi-day.

–Mark

As a fellow Alaskan I can empathize with the frustration with our shoulder season hypothermia inducing conditions. One piece of gear that I have found to be essential is what I call my “never get cold” jacket, which is a Pagagonia Nanopuff pullover. As a general rule I don’t like pullovers because I overheat and you can’t just unzip the front much for venting. But for a piece of gear to prevent hypothermia, I have found that one piece of gear to be better than anything else I’ve ever tried. It has a home in just about every kit I use no matter what time of  year because of that.

Wow, James, a hiking shirt and rain jacket wouldn’t cut it for me at 30 and raining. I’d be shivering nonstop!  I need that fleece layer. I don’t see how a wool layer could be lighter than a fleece?

Thanks Dena, I’ll check out the PG nano puff. They are so expensive, so I rarely buy PG stuff. But if it works for you, it might work for me too.

Heading out tomorrow night; nighttime temps are in the 20s where I’m headed, but dry weather in the forecast. Still have to be prepared for wet though, you never know! So many times I’ve been caught out in wet weather. My husband commented that my pack looks bigger than it did for the Sierra, and I’m not even taking a bear canister, micro spikes, or a tent, as I did in the Sierra! but I have a bigger puffy jacket than I needed for that hike, and a second set of gloves, hat, socks, in case of wet. And there must be something else in there…??! Checking that list again.

“I find synthetic better than merino for the base: my choice is Patagonia Thermal Weight.”

Let me once again plug the Patagonia Thermal Weight gridded fleece hoody.  The gridded vs. non-gridded debate has been beaten to death in previous threads and I think this choice falls squarely into the HYOH category…there are different choices because people are different.

*My* experience is that gridded fleece is only warm when used under a shell (I prefer poncho or Packa) and then it is very performant for the weight.  The grid is very open which, when used on it’s own, allows rapid cooling with just a small breeze.  For me this makes it perfect for cold and wet…ventilate the shell as needed.  When the Pat gets wet, and it will get wet, it dries very quickly provided there is any opportunity for it to dry.

“My dry layers are always dry, all my down goes in a bag at the bottom of my pack. They are not available to use while hiking.”

James nailed it.  Hiking clothing is just that…for hiking.  Warm (down in my case) clothing is never used while moving, and is reserved and protected for stationary activities.  Note:  I have yet to hike in daytime temps below 20 deg, which colors my comments and opinions.

Lots of wonderful advice in this, Thank you!

While I know vests “aren’t for everyone”, I have found that when I am in cold/wet weather a vest is a wonderful piece of gear.

Even though I totally believe in protecting one’s extremities like everyone else, cold hands/feet are merely a symptom of the bigger problem. A vest is real nice for adding a little bit core warmth without causing too much restriction and reducing the potential for overheating. For the past few years, I’ve been pretty content with a lightweight wp down vest for simply “taking the edge off” during cold/wet excursions. Of course a lightweight fleece vest would probably serve just as well, and likely perform more consistently under additional layers than my down does.

But so far so good.

@ Karen

+1 to Edward John above

You write: “After the race I went home, had a hot shower, hot tea, and a meal, as my friends also did. But we were all shaking and cold for a couple of hours after the race.”

But the shaking came before the hot shower, tea etc, yes?

This sounds like mild hypothermia although the shivering can sometimes last just a few minutes.  Since you are just out for the day. Yes Bring hot thermos of tea or soup. If you have stove, pot and access to water, you can also turn a platypus into a hot water bottle.

If someone gets hypothermic, multiple chemical heat packs like the ones sold during ski season can be applied under the armpits and in the groin area near the major blood vessels.

Any suggestions for light-ish thermoses?

I do bring a thermos for winter surf days, but those are dang heavy.

Not a Thermos as such but I often carry hot water in a bottle inside a foam insulated bag [ think OR Water bottle parka] but mine is home made; double wrapped in a fleece in the centre of my pack. it stays very hot for an hour or two and warm for up to 8 hours

There is an UL aversion to the weight of fleece but in really wet conditions  in my experience nothing beats the effectiveness of good quality fleece or pile when it is raining and 100% humidity because of its inherent resistance to collapse. It is this resistance to collapse that made old fashioned woollen shirts the mainstay of outdoor clothing for so many hundreds of years but fleece doesn’t take days to dry out

Bruce, no, the shaking came after the hot shower. I knew I was cold, but wasn’t shivering while driving home. After the hot shower and donning warm clothes, I started to shiver and didn’t stop until i had hot tea and a hot meal.

i think part of my reaction was due to high exertion, but also due to the cold damp day. My clothes weren’t very sweaty, since our pace was slow.

After much trial and error, I have my gear pretty well set, but I do add some gear when I know I’ll be out in the rain overnight. It just gets darned cold when it’s 40 and drizzling.

@Bruce
A different opinion, or speculation.
You had been working hard in the cold and wet.
I suspect your shaking was simply hunger, solved by a hot meal.
Been there ourselves.

Cheers

Karen, sorry about the late reply, out hiking…
Yeah, I usually manage down to about 40F/~4C w/rain with just my rain jacket and light hiking shirt. Rain isn’t a problem, ‘cuz I get a bit sweaty anyway. I have been out on training hikes at 38F with just a short sleeved shirt and come back soaking wet with sweat.
Rain is a big problem though. I hits my skin and rolls off after soaking up heat. I get cold very fast. So, an XXL rain jacket goes on over my hiking shirt. This provides plenty of ventilation because of being oversized. It sheds the water without soaking much body heat, first. This is my usual for hiking in rain at temps down to about snowing (as high as 35F.) When the temperature is above 50F, I often skip the rain jacket anyway, choosing to just hike wet. At much above 60F, I slow down a bit because it is really too hot to travel fast unless it is a heavy rain. Between 30-40F, whenever I think about it, I slip my sweater on. But, I have been out with just my rain jacket and shirt in regular snow (between 28F and 32F.) Once you get snow, it is actually warmer to hike, because of being dryer.

Mountain mist isn’t a problem usually. After a couple hours everything can get wet, anyway. It is rare that it continues all day, mostly till 1200 or so. By 1600 I stop for camp. I set up camp, change into dry night cloths and hang my shirt/pants…usually after rinsing them out. In the fall weather, I only have a few hours of hiking, anyway. Usually between 0900 and 1600. (I make coffee, oatmeal/cocoa for breakfast, usually before packing and only hike til late afternoon.) But, in fall, I can hike faster. So, it is around the same 15mi I put in on summer days.
While I am moving, this is plenty. Once I set up camp, things get really cold, fast. I have used my shirt and rain gear as a second layer over my down jacket at camp. I always set up some kind of tarp for a dry area…usually in front of the fire. The small tarp is only 9oz and provides a good dry area for sitting around at camp, cooking, and, for sleeping under occasionally…good for two people and the camp fire in fall.
Anyway, moving through the ADK’s usually requires a good effort. Normally, a wool shirt is better than a synthetic because it will hold heat even if it gets wet. And, it ventilates better. And, it has pores that let out my sweat. This due to the stiffer fibers. Wetting them doesn’t seem to flatten out the fibers too much. Yes, it is heavier than a synthetic fleece. However, it is warmer when soaking wet. Cooler when dry. I believe it is more versitile and worth the 14oz weight. When dry (or just damp) a rain jacket over it closes up the pores and leaves me with a 1/4″ of “felt” as insulation. Doing nothing at camp, it is often too much with a rain jacket. (I also use my sweater to 0F for shoveling snow.) When it is wet, I often use it to find and cut firewood for camp. Again, it is sometimes too much for cutting. Especially after I get a little fire going. (This is no more than 16″ around and, with a good rock wall, will raise the reflected temp a lot.) The tarp usually covers the fire or close to it. It really warms up under it and drys things a LOT.

Anyway, my overall pack weights in late fall/early spring are NOT UL. I typically carry about 15pounds(base) or about double what I carry in warmer weather. I take the same gear, plus extra socks (knee length wool,) sweater, rain gear, 5 or 6 wet weather fire starters, my saw, sweater, camp shoes and other things (including my light fleece.) I forgo those in summer.

Cold Wet Conditions:

1. HIKING-> GTX Pro Shell or, preferably, eVent for pants and rein parka with GTX boots using a 3 mm closed cell neoprene diver’s  sock over a thin poly liner to keep the inside of the boots dry. torso/leg insulation can be either high quality synthetic fiber filled clothing (Climashield or NanoPuff) of proper weight or fleece if the former is unavailable. Polyester long johns of appropriate weight is my base layer. DRY BAGS for clothing, plastic pack liner bag as well.
2. IN CAMP-> Tent with a decent size vestibule for cooking or a small (8′ x 8′ ) cooking fly for group trips. Possibly a tent ground cloth for extreme wet conditions. This ground cloth should be a few inches smaller on all sides than the tent floor footprint to preclude water from running in off the tent walls. Good music or e-book for long hours inside tents.

DRY BAGS for clothing,
Does anyone NOT pack their warm clothing and down gear in waterproof bags?

Our quilts and warm tops each go in a silnylon stuff sack which goes in a sealed plastic bag which goes in a closed silnylon stuff sack. Yeah, paranoid, but we have never had wet stuff despite the odd swim.

Cheers

Essential warm gear and sleeping gear always double bagged but the belay parka needs to be available in an instant so lives uncompressed at the very top of the rucksack. Looking though my gear stash I seem to have a rather large selection of belay type parkas these days

We moved our ranch so I have been offline with no internet for months so I’m really late to the conversation but here are my 2 cents :-)…I used yak wool base layers and an alpaca pullover and the Melanzana hoodie on the PCT during some bad spring storms in March two years ago. Winter conditions really. In the day I wore the Lightheart gear rain jacket on top and Patagonia wind pants over the yak lower base layer. Yak wool is amazing. I wore one long-sleeved yak wool zip-top and if I needed it, the alpaca hoodie over it only if it got below 30 degrees, which was rare in the daytime. It was so cold and the wind was so bad that stopping to eat or rest was not an option so I ate and drank as I moved. To stop for longer than a minute was not good. I had to expose my forearms every once in a while in the 45- degree driving rainstorms that turned to snow up high, to cool off, but as long as I paced well and didn’t go too fast my core was dry and warm. Yak wool “breathes” better than anything I have used and I’ve used everything, synthetic and natural fibers. It dries well with just body heat. I also had fleece gloves and rain mitts. Pit zips on the raincoat helped a lot. The only wet parts of me while hiking ( with walking poles ) was my elbows due to runoff and rolling up my sleeves, the elbows were soaking wet but a tolerable temperature. I kept one hoodie, usually the Melanzana, dry for in the tent and sleeping, and the other alpaca hoodie reserved for hiking. I had two yak wool lower half base layers, one calf length, and another pair full length, usually saving the shorter ones for sleeping. I wore calf-length alpaca ski socks to bed. Toasty warm and my feet dried off nicely during the night after being wet all day. One particularly bad day folks were coming off-trail into town hypothermic or compromised because of the severe weather combined with the wrong clothing or lack thereof or equipment failure in extreme conditions. The horror stories in the local restaurant were scary. I was so thankful for the choices I made, I run hot but hate being cold, especially at night while sleeping. I’m also a cold sleeper and eating right at the right times is really important for me. It was not ultralight but it was worth it. Yak wool is the bomb. I use Kora. I was comfortable all day and slept like the dead at night. :-)

How was the durabikity of the yak wool? I love the performance of merino but have given up on it due to fragility.