Standards Watch: Tent Designer Mike Cecot-Scherer Talks Standards

[Backpacking Light]

Rex Sanders interviews long-time gear designer Mike Cecot-Scherer about a range of common gear standards.

• Standards Watch: Tent Designer Mike Cecot-Scherer Talks Standards

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Great stuff! Looking forward to the rest of the series.

[Stephen Seeber]

Interesting discussion.  Sounds like the cotton tent makers wrote a standard to eliminate their synthetic competitors.  On the subject of standards, ISO 5912:2011 is a test standard that covers many aspects of test performance, including measuring, hydrostatic head requirements and more.  Their HH standard varies according to tent classification.  There are two categories of tents and three levels in each.  However, they call for 2500 mm for tent outer fabric and 5100 mm for a ground sheet.  I wonder if the Kelty rain room simulated heavy winds.  If so, under the right circumstances I wonder if they would find 1500mm or 1800mm to be a problem?

[Stumphges]

Stephen, interesting questions. And I think the community here has established pretty well that designing to a 1500 or 1800mm standard is a problem, if for no other reason that the fly fabric will degrade and fall below that standard relatively quickly if the tent is used a lot. Thus, all the cottage manufacturers, who are responsive to the serious users who are their customer base, have chosen fabrics that well exceed that standard.

[Stephen Seeber]

I recently did aging tests on 7 fabrics using my newly reconfigured HH tester which is now sized to conform with ISO 811 and AATCC 127.  Average HH head loss through aging in 7 tent fabrics: 53%.  So, yes, it is important.

[Stumphges]

How realistic do you find the aging protocols, insofar as they simulate what tent fly fabrics face in the wild?

[Stephen Seeber]

I don’t know.  I am following the Protocol B described I believe by R. Nisley and Roger Caffin. Perhaps they can address the origins of the test and its applicability.  I do think it is a useful piece of information when trying to choose from competing fabric choices.  There are other wear standards the use wash cycles but require more cycles than the single one called for by Protocol B.

[Matt Dirksen]

“Sounds like the cotton tent makers wrote a standard to eliminate their synthetic competitors.”

I wonder if that was actually intentional, or were they simply trying to be as “cya” as possible. Obviously once California chose to “broadly apply” it to recreational tents, that pretty much did it for the manufactures (I’m guessing). I suspect they could have created exceptions for small tents back when they wrote the law, but I’d think there was too much money to be made for companies who made the fire retardant chemicals.

I think what’s more interesting to me nowadays is the growing backlash over these same chemicals and the increased risk of cancer:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3958138/

https://www.rei.com/blog/news/rei-pursuing-new-testing-method-to-eliminate-flame-retardants

https://www.outsideonline.com/2406767/flame-resistant-tents-carcinogens-cancer

 

[Bruce Tolley]

“I have never even once heard of anybody dying or being seriously injured by a backpacking or mountaineering type tent [burning]. It warped the whole industry.”

Not to sidetrack the main point. But this comment made me remember a chapter in one of Jon Krakauer’s books about a climbing disaster on Denali. The disaster happens at the end of a chain of events which began with a fire in one of the tents that leads to the loss of the tent and some gear, plus a number of bad decisions subsequently.

[Rex Sanders]

My searches turned up this part of a Denali disaster story in the Daily Mail:

“Within 3000 feet of the summit, a tent fire engulfed one tent with six men inside who escaped with singed eyebrows and beards as well as minor burns. A smoldering floor and metal zippers was all that remained of the vaporized tent. Down parkas and a sleeping bag had melted into a stinking pile of nylon.”

Seven climbers died during the 7-day storm that followed, with peak winds over 300 mph. Most of them died while returning from the final summit climb.

At least five books have been written on that disastrous 1967 Wilcox expedition up Denali, with many stories online. The Daily Mail account is the only online story that mentions the tent fire.

So you are still very, very unlikely to die in an untreated tent fire while backpacking or mountaineering. What happens after that can hinge on incredibly bad luck.

— Rex

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Very interesting info from a professional.

WATERPROOFNESS: I’ve owned two PU coated tents in the ’80s. Since then all have been silnylon Tarptents. The 1st two I re-coated with a 5:1 mix of odorless mineral spirits and GE clear silicone caulk only because there were complaints of “mist-thru” in driving rain. I had never experienced that in my Contrail in a few hard rains but better safe than sorry. Henry Shires then upped the coating and complaints ended.

HEADROOM: The one thing I realized was that headroom is going to be VERY restricted in a solo tent. Deal with it! Tarptent was the 1st to give realistic 3-D diagrams of tent interior space showing the outline of an average size man (say 5′ 11″) inside. Very helpful.

TEAR STRENGTH: Good designers are always fiddling with proper strain point reinforcements. An example I know of is my Gen. 2 Notch Li that has had more reinforcements added relative to the Gen. 1 Notch Li.

FIRE RETARDANT: If the “retard” owning the tent can’t be careful then likely nothing will save them. Never use a liquid fuel stove inside a tent, period.

With this article we now have a better understanding of all the factors tent designers must contend with when designing their next cool tent that will actually (probably) sell – or not.

 

[Rex Sanders]

“With this article we now have a better understanding of all the factors tent designers must contend with when designing their next cool tent that will actually (probably) sell – or not.”

Then you’ll want to read the next installment of that interview, dedicated to tent design. Should be published soonish.

— Rex

[Bruce Tolley]

@ Rex

Like I said, my remembrance had little to do with the theme of the standards article.

The theme of the Krakauer essay about the Denalis disaster is that disasters are not simply bad luck but a chain of events, the result of many events some of which are accidents others bad planning or bad decision-making or poor preparation. He correctly argues in my reading that the tent fire was the first event in the chain that led to the disaster.

Cheers

 

[Bruce Tolley]

BTW the essay on Denali is in this collection Eiger Dreams: Ventures Among Men and Mountain.  I no longer own the book but if I recall correctly Krakauer’s telling of the story, the loss of the tent, sleeping bags and other insulation led to fatigue and hypothermia which in turned caused other problems.

 

[Rex Sanders]

Part 2 of my interview with Mike Cecot-Scherer dropped yesterday, focused on tent design:

https://backpackinglight.com/standards-watch-mike-cecot-scherer-on-tent-design/

— Rex

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