Stacking two insulation (puffy) jackets for cold winter conditions

I find it hard to predict what someone else will need, so I don’t really know how to weigh in on that… but I also stack insulation layers per the same method you described.  I often use a lightweight down jacket over a down vest, or vice versa.  I also flip my down and shell layers depending on what I’m doing.  I prefer this system of lighter, reversible layers to singular heavy layers.

Regarding fabric: I tend to go a bit heavier, anymore… mostly because I tore too many holes in the lighter stuff.  On the flip side, I kind of self-clearanced and selectively reinforced my gear by accidentally ripping it and then repairing it; the areas I’m prone to hitting have ripstop on them, now, and no longer get hurt.

Most elastic hems fit me tightly enough to seal drafts.

hmm.. what happened to my original post? I only see your reply.

I find it hard to predict what someone else will need, so I don’t really know how to weigh in on that

I understand, it’s how I feel about most gear questions that doesn’t provide a very detailed level of context.
I figured I’d ask anyway, as this topic doesn’t seem to be discussed much, so it would be nice to get a little discussion going. And while every use case is different, there are probably some generic takeaways.

Regarding fabric: I tend to go a bit heavier, anymore

I guess I might be pushing my luck with 7D, but at the same time it’s important to have it in my backpack when I need it, and the more bulk and weight – the more I will question if it’s really necessary. And there’s probably not a one size fits all solution to this. Whatever I buy first, there will always be something that works and something that doesn’t. Maybe I realize I’ll be better served by something else, or maybe I need more than one to cover the full range of activities and conditions that’s relevant.
What would you consider heavier for this type of use?

Most elastic hems fit me tightly enough to seal drafts.

Somewhat comforting, but historically its been a bit of hit and miss for me, even when I’ve bought jackets in my regular size. I’ll find out soon enough :)

I sure hope others are able to see my first post, or this might not be the most lengthy and interesting discussion.

Stacking insulation is the essence of layering. We all do it. I’m curious what else you had to say about it?

 I’m curious what else you had to say about it?

So does this mean that you can’t see my firat post either?

Stacking insulation is the essence of layering. We all do it.

Even assuming that no one is able to see my firs post, which would be unfortunate, the heading clearly implies that this isn’t about stacking insulation in general terms, but specifically the practice of using two thinner insulation filled jackets (down or synthetic) to replace a thick insulation jacket in winter conditions where a heavy(er) insulation jacket would otherwise be required.
By my estimation this has many perceived benefits: not having to spend money on a heavy and expensive insulation jacket with a very narrow and rare use case, more easily adapt to changes in activity level and/or weather conditions, more flexibility when combining with other layers as well (e.g. able to fit both over or under a hard shell, or even both at once).

We all do it.

I’m willing to argue this is not something everybody does. In my 30+ years of backpacking I haven’t noticed anyone doing this as a deliberate habit/philosophy. And based on (admittedly limited) searching, “no one” writes or makes videos about this topic either.

The TLDR of my post was to find out if anyone else does this, share experiences and gain valuable insight. Especially regarding the outermost insulation jacket (reinforcement layer?). What are the preferred materials, features, how much to size up, are there benefits to choosing a vest over a jacket, etc.

This has been lurking in the back of my head for quite a while, but I already have a lot of gear so the idea had to mature to make sure I wasn’t just acquiring another drawer stuffer.
A few days back I took the plunge and ordered a Norrøna Trollveggen Superlight down850 hood, but even though this wasn’t an impulsive acquisition I very quickly developed some doubts regarding my choice. I haven’t received it yet, so there’s still a chance I’ll be reinsured once I get it in hand and able to verify compatibility with some other jackets.

Whatever I decide, it seems like a discussion worth having.

Heh. Sorry, no, the title doesn’t suggest any of that, other than layering two puffies.

“We all do it” = “We all layer insulation”

But you are asking specifically about UL puffies, which is a bit different.

I have an MH Ghost Whisperer. It has a tiny amount of the most flimsy down available. It won’t support the weight of a windshirt on top, let alone anything else. I would be surprised if two GW’s could be layered to replace a warmer puffy.

Ultimately, it probably depends on the specific jackets: the specific insulation and fit of both garments will matter. My guess is:

• Two UL layers of the same size will not stack well.
• I would not attempt to stack my GW with anything over it. However, the GW might work over a more robust inner layer.
• Two expedition-style 650 fill weight jackets will probably stack nicely, especially if one is larger than the other.
• In very cold weather (0F/-20C), I routinely stack a puffy jacket over a puffy vest, but they both have synthetic insulation, which is more robust than the GW. (Both fit loosely because I use both as outer layers at different temperatures).

You will have to try your specific garments to see how they work together.

Ghosted.

I wear baggy Naturehike down pants over GW pants which are more tailored.

I wear synthetic over a down vest. I don’t like too many sleeves. I have so many rips in the synthetic, I would have lost down.

I’ve doubled down, but mostly in Vegas.

hmm.. what happened to my original post? I only see your reply.

Weird.  That’s the second first-post-is-gone I’ve seen this morning…

Regarding your other questions…

What would you consider heavier for this type of use?

20D is probably a good threshold number, for me.  My main-use winter poofy jacket is a Mammut Broad Peak; it weighs…oh, 375g or so?  It’s not heavy for what it is, but I’m pretty sure it has a 15D shell (newer ones are heavier) and that adds some extra weight.  But: I haven’t torn it yet…and I can’t say that about my usual down vest, which has a 10D shell.  I also had some damage on a 7D jacket that I had awhile back; I found it too delicate and eventually got rid it it.

If I had my pick, I’d probably keep 10D or a lightweight 15D on the majority of the garment, with 20D or more on the high-wear areas…but I’m a klutz, so that makes sense for me.

Two UL layers of the same size will not stack well.

I think it depends on how much extra space/fabric is present; I like a bit of a looser fit, and I flip layers without a great deal of discomfort.  I generally size them to go in a specific order – shell over poofy, for example – but I’ve reversed and reordered without much of a penalty.  It’s certainly not perfect, but it works; persons whom prefer a more athletic fit might not have as much success.

Now that the first post is back

I use one quilt, good down to maybe 45F.  Supplex pants and shirt.

I add a synthetic vest, 3.5 osy apex down to 35F.  And a fleece hat.

I put a 9 ounce down vest over the synthetic down to 20F.  Also add a synthetic balaclava.

I use 7d fabric for inner stuff.  Fairly careful with it and it doesn’t rip.

I think many people do not layer like this.  You need enough room inside the sleeping bag for everything to loft.

For down jackets I have found the most thermally efficient method is to wear a down vest under a down jacket or parka. This gives you the core insulation without the Michelin Man feel that an inside jacket would. Generally you want arms less insulated than your torso to avoid overheating.

I now have a new LL Bean Wind Challenger down parka good for -10 F. If it were colder I would and could wear my down vest under it. Wearing a thick fleece vest is a less bulky alternative for layering if weight is no problem, as in resort skiing.

I have an MH Ghost Whisperer. It has a tiny amount of the most flimsy down available. It won’t support the weight of a windshirt on top, let alone anything else. I would be surprised if two GW’s could be layered to replace a warmer puffy.

Well this is reason for some concern. The Trollveggen is a bit heavier than the GW, but definitely in the same category. It’s intended as the exterior layer, so hopefully it wont be too flimsy for that role.

Two UL layers of the same size will not stack well.

Definitely sizing up for this. That’s why it has taken a while to test this idea. It requires new gear, and I’m a bit reluctant to spend the money on something that isn’t really useful on its own. I sized up two sizes over my regular Norrøna size, though I haven’t tried this specific model before. I should probably have ordered two different sizes (+2 and +3), so I could compare and pick the largest one that isn’t unwieldly large.

If I had my pick, I’d probably keep 10D or a lightweight 15D on the majority of the garment, with 20D or more on the high-wear areas…but I’m a klutz, so that makes sense for me.

That seems reasonable. My gut feeling is that 20D is too heavy as a main material for this purpose, the 7D I went for is probably too far to the other end of the spectrum, whereas 10-15D could be the sweet spot.

It seems like a relatively large portion of the small sample size that has replied in this thread use a down vest as part of their system. I have considered this as well, but I imagined it would be most useful to wear it on top of my other layers, be that another insulation layer or a shell layer.

For down jackets I have found the most thermally efficient method is to wear a down vest under a down jacket or parka. This gives you the core insulation without the Michelin Man feel that an inside jacket would. Generally you want arms less insulated than your torso to avoid overheating.

For me, if I’d opt for a vest, it would be to save weight and to have less bulk around my hands. While Michelin arms are OK for just staying warm while sitting still or performing coarse tasks, they can easily get in the way when trying to perform fine motor tasks like cooking, ice fishing etc.
But being one of those who very easily gets cold in the extremities while my core can at the same time be comfortably warm or even over heated, opting for a vest potentially comes with significant trade off in the ability to stay warm where it’s most urgently needed.
I’ve looked at some hooded down vests, which seems like a good choice for such a layer, but haven’t found the right combination of size and price yet.

My personal bottom line on layering: For me, a jacket with 200g/6oz of down will be warmer than two jackets with 100g/3oz of ultra-high-loft down.

Also, 800 fill power (or less) has more structure than 900-1000 fill power down. The latter is lighter per loft, of course, but it won’t support much on top of it.

Regarding vests, they are like having giant pit zips, which makes then useful as mid layers while active. Yes, I sometimes wear a large vest over my wind shell in cold weather. When unzipped, the vest dumps a great deal of heat. When zipped up, it adds a lot of warmth.

Does a vest beat Alpha Direct for active use? No, not in 3-season conditions. But a vest can be warmer, which might be better in colder weather.

Some makers build add-on sleeves for vests, which would be helpful if your arms/hands get cold when you stop: Jacks ‘r’ Better, Goosefeet Gear, Timmermade, and MYOG (just cut the sleeves off of a puffy and add straps), among others.

Or just use a jacket if that works better for you than a vest.

I got a fleece jacket from work.  It has an AMAT logo on it.

I cut the arms off it and now use it around the house or in the yard.  With fleece, you don’t have to do anything to the edges.

Fleece is too heavy for lightweight backpacking in my opinion.  I use synthetic insulation – apex 3.5 osy.

I’ve done exactly as you describe.

I take a Cumulus Primelite (3.something oz of down and 7D fabric), as well as a Nunatak Apex pullover that I purchased off gear swap. The Apex pullover is sized generously for the purpose of layering and does not compress the down underneath.

Works great, honestly! It was a case of “use what you have” since I already owned both pieces and they layered beautifully. In addition, both can be layered under my oversized Montbell Versalite as an outer shell. It’s poofed out but works.

One drawback is neither piece is hooded, so I rely on my baselayer hood plus a light fleece beanie and/or a buff for head and neck insulation.

I generally take the Primelite on most 3-season trips, while ocassionally swapping it out for the Apex pullover when it’s gonna be very wet or some other factor nudges me in that direction…

It seems like a relatively large portion of the small sample size that has replied in this thread use a down vest as part of their system. I have considered this as well, but I imagined it would be most useful to wear it on top of my other layers, be that another insulation layer or a shell layer.

I use a vest, but I almost never stack it over a down layer.  Over a fleece?  Sure, no issue.  Over a shell?  Doubtful, because when I’m throwing insulation over a shell I’m essentially makeshifting a belay jacket and my arms/hands/neck are the parts that I need to keep warm.

Definitely sizing up for this. That’s why it has taken a while to test this idea. It requires new gear, and I’m a bit reluctant to spend the money on something that isn’t really useful on its own. I sized up two sizes over my regular Norrøna size, though I haven’t tried this specific model before. I should probably have ordered two different sizes (+2 and +3), so I could compare and pick the largest one that isn’t unwieldly large.

I usually size up by +1 for all of my outermost layers; any more than that, and they not only cease to fit, but also cannot be flipped in the layer schedule.  A +1 shell over a +1 poofy jacket will basically give a light smoosh to the poofy’s insulation, which remains 90% effective and gives about the same range of motion and restrictions as an insulated shell.  Using the +1 poofy over the shell just compresses the shell fabric a bit, which isn’t much of an inconvenience if it’s a 2- or 2.5-layer shell; 3-layers get rather crinkly, but it still works.  The point is that by picking similar-sized layers that will work with each other, you aren’t left with a bunch of one-trick-ponies that can only work in a certain order.  It sometimes takes a bit of shopping to make it all work out as best possible, but hey: you were gonna be shopping anyway, right?

Just my opinion, all of this; hope it helps.

I’ve done exactly as you describe.

Thanks for your reply, Chris. It’s encouraging to know I’m not the only one who think this can be a useful approach.

I take a Cumulus Primelite (3.something oz of down and 7D fabric), as well as a Nunatak Apex pullover that I purchased off gear swap. The Apex pullover is sized generously for the purpose of layering and does not compress the down underneath.

My initial thinking was something along these lines, i.e. getting a synthetic jacket to wear as the top insulation layer. It made a lot of sense; synthetics will better handle moisture from precipitation, they’re typically not quilted/stitched through (which I suspect is more advantageous for the outermost layer) and there’s ample availability of synthetic belay style jackets that are more or less designed for this purpose with roomier fit and often a denser more water resistant or even waterproof outer fabric.

But they’re also heavier and bulkier, and I also realized there’s a discrepancy between marketing/intended use and my own use case; I don’t climb or go on high grade mountaineering trips anymore, so I’m rarely forced to endure prolonged static activities in miserable conditions. In most situations where I need extra insulation these days, it’s either a blistering cold winter day with clear blue skies or if there’s prolonged periods of wet precipitation I’m usually able to seek refuge from the weather in a tent or temporary shelter.
There’s also the fact that I already own a few jackets with synthetic insulation that are quite form fitting and wouldn’t allow another insulation jacket underneath. I feel like they are very suitable as a first insulation layer, as they are supposedly (and IMO) better suited for low to medium activity where you need to mange some excess heat and sweat. Synthetics are also what I prefer to wear under a rain-/hard shell in cold weather with precipitation, just because I worry less about them getting wet.
So with all these factors pointing me towards (re)using synthetics for my first insulation layer, I’m very much leaning toward down for the top insulation layer to save weight and bulk and not be tempted to leave it back home. I do already have a couple of down jackets that are quite generously sized, but being intended for stand alone use, they’re quite heavy and bulky. So I don’t really think I can put together a useful system without buying a dedicated top layer. But I’m definitively on a budget for this.

Works great, honestly! It was a case of “use what you have” since I already owned both pieces and they layered beautifully.

This is the feedback I was hoping for. And yeah, like mentioned above; using what I own is ofc also part of the reason I want to wear synthetic jackets closest to my body. Hopefully that doesn’t make the end result any less great :)

One drawback is neither piece is hooded, so I rely on my baselayer hood plus a light fleece beanie and/or a buff for head and neck insulation.

I have the opposite “problem”, but it’s very intentional. I have a hood on every layer except my Brynje base layer. It can get a bit crowded in the neck area at times, and I used to hate that. But after an incident that caused damage to my ears I’ve become very sensitive to noise, so no matter how few or how many layers I have on, I always want a hood available to pull on and give me more relief from wind noise. That also explains why I’m only considering puffy vests with a hood, for those who may think that’s kind of a silly criteria :)

I use a vest, but I almost never stack it over a down layer.  Over a fleece?  Sure, no issue.  Over a shell?  Doubtful, because when I’m throwing insulation over a shell I’m essentially makeshifting a belay jacket and my arms/hands/neck are the parts that I need to keep warm.

Interesting perspective. I think I’m leaving a vest off the table for the time being.

I usually size up by +1 for all of my outermost layers; any more than that, and they not only cease to fit, but also cannot be flipped in the layer schedule.  A +1 shell over a +1 poofy jacket will basically give a light smoosh to the poofy’s insulation, which remains 90% effective and gives about the same range of motion and restrictions as an insulated shell.  Using the +1 poofy over the shell just compresses the shell fabric a bit, which isn’t much of an inconvenience if it’s a 2- or 2.5-layer shell; 3-layers get rather crinkly, but it still works.  The point is that by picking similar-sized layers that will work with each other, you aren’t left with a bunch of one-trick-ponies that can only work in a certain order.

In my experience sizing isn’t as universally applicable. In general I have to size up +1 for any down jacket in order to wear over just a regular mid layer without causing unnecessary compression of the down. This usually doesn’t apply to synthetics though.
But Norrøna in particular is very unpredictable in their sizing. I haven’t used any of their down before, but among their other garments I own, I have smalls that wear very large, with ample room for layering, in one and, and large’s that wear borderline too small on the opposite end. It’s a bit of a nuisance, but when I find the right size they usually fit me very well, and being a Norwegian company it’s very convenient with returns, repairs and warranty issues. And it’s quite easy to find good deals.

It sometimes takes a bit of shopping to make it all work out as best possible, but hey: you were gonna be shopping anyway, right?

Unfortunately. Being a person who runs cold and yet loves spending time outside in the winter season, I thoroughly appreciate having the gear I need to stay warm before I end up in a situation where I need it. So while I really don’t enjoy the process of shopping, shopping for hypotheticals is unavoidable to a certain degree. It should be said I’m no longer a very advanced user, so I no longer need to chase margins at ridicules cost. If I don’t notice any glaring shortcomings with the Trollveggen superlight when I receive it, I’ll probably keep it until it needs replacing – even if it ends up not quite performing to my expectations.

Just my opinion, all of this; hope it helps.

Absolutely. Your replies were thoughtful and shows that you took the time to dig into the subject and understand what I’m looking for. I’m very appreciative for your time and effort.

Patagonia DAS Hoodie. Doesn’t weigh much.

My personal bottom line on layering: For me, a jacket with 200g/6oz of down will be warmer than two jackets with 100g/3oz of ultra-high-loft down.

I’m neither constrained to using two ultra light, ultra high loft, down jackets nor am I looking for the ultimate amount of warmth to weight ratio.
The sleep system analogy used in my first post, was included to really underline that I’m primarily looking for more flexibility. Making the move from one thick and heavy winter sleeping bag to a small selection of summer and 3-season bags and quilts, that can be used individually or combined to best suit the expected conditions have been overwhelmingly positive for me, and I have never considered going back to using a dedicated winter bag.
I’ve used synthetic bags/quilts as both inner and outer layer, and the same for down and both approaches work, but for a bunch of reasons (mostly unrelated to the actual fill material) I’ve never used the same material for inner and outer layer at the same time.
Doing this for my sleep system has resulted in better sleep comfort and better return on my investments as my old approach was more often too warm or too cold, and the most expensive bag was almost always too warm and consequently (and ironically) the least used.

While insulation jackets are a different game, it’s hard to imagine that similar benefits can’t be achieved by combining insulation jackets with slightly different properties, rather than trying to solve all insulation jacket needs (for one trip) with just one jacket.
How to best approach it, I don’t know. That’s what this tread is for.

Also, 800 fill power (or less) has more structure than 900-1000 fill power down. The latter is lighter per loft, of course, but it won’t support much on top of it.

This is partly (but not only) why I’ve concluded (for now) that I’ll want to use down for my top layer and synthetics for the inner / first insulation layer.

Regarding vests, they are like having giant pit zips, which makes then useful as mid layers while active. Yes, I sometimes wear a large vest over my wind shell in cold weather. When unzipped, the vest dumps a great deal of heat. When zipped up, it adds a lot of warmth.

…

Or just use a jacket if that works better for you than a vest.

Vests are off the table for the moment. Too many variables to deal with already.
I have a cheap, no name brand, oversized, inherited down vest I like to add on top of my other clothes when working with maintenance or other projects around the property in cold weather. It significantly increases the comfort of working outside, while still leaving my arms lean and nimble enough to not interfere with my work. It’s an appealing idea for some outdoor applications as well, but it’s a more complex scenario and the use case might be to narrow to justify the effort. Maybe later.

In my experience sizing isn’t as universally applicable.

Nor mine.  I don’t pay attention to label sizing anymore; it’s all rather inaccurate now that vanity sizing and subjectivity are used so universally.  And it’s kind of hard to describe the shape and dimensions of a complex three-dimensional shape with singular words – “medium” – in the first place.  So, I just try stuff on and rank my sizing by how well it fits on me.  So, I now have medium, large, large-tall, extra medium, and women’s 2x clothing that’s all approximately of the same dimension.  That’s more what I meant by the +1 from the earlier post.

For what it’s worth: in the near future I’m probably going to look for an inexpensive synthetic poofy layer for winter, which will occupy the same slot as my lightweight down layer, but hopefully be slightly more moisture-resistant.  I fully intend on stacking it with my vest, shell, both, or even the other poofy as well, if need be.

hmm.. the Trollveggen down850 hood has arrived

Definitely sizing up for this. That’s why it has taken a while to test this idea. It requires new gear, and I’m a bit reluctant to spend the money on something that isn’t really useful on its own. I sized up two sizes over my regular Norrøna size, though I haven’t tried this specific model before. I should probably have ordered two different sizes (+2 and +3), so I could compare and pick the largest one that isn’t unwieldly large.

..it was definitively large enough, or quite right for the intended use I suspect. But..

One thing I didn’t notice before I ordered, but very shortly after, is that it has just an elastic hem and no drawstring. Already being oversized I fear that it wont’t be snug enough

..as I feared, this will likely be a real issue. It’s not even close to being a snug fit around the hem.
I’ll think about it over the weekend and try it with some different clothes on, but I think it’s going back.

It’s not even close to being a snug fit around the hem.

Do you have a tailor nearby?  If the rest of the jacket fits and works, it might be worth modifying.  I know that sounds crazy because it’s new, but it might be worth the craziness.

For a SEWN THROUGH down parka (or jacket W/O hood) I recommend the LL Bean “Ultralight 850 Down Jacket” at $290. for the hooded version. It has Bean’s DownTek DWR teated 850 fill down. This is great for weather to -20 IF you have a hooded WPB sell parks to cover it. Otherwise I’d say +10 F. is its lower range with a good base and mid layer.