Soto Amicus vs Kovea Spider vs Whisperlite for snow?

[Nathan H]

I currently own a Soto Amicus.

Is it worth the weight/cost(if you were in this situation) of getting an inverted canister, or liquid fuel stove if I only have plans to do 1-2 night camping in 15-20F low conditions? I’m using the stove to melt water and to cook freezer bag stuff.

I’ve been using my Soto with a water bath, and it works ok. I don’t know how much better are the other two options. Are those substantial upgrades to justify the weight and cost?

[Bruce Tolley]

Nathan
Is your only source of liquid water be from melted snow? You could get by. It is going to be a PITA to melt snow on a small 700ml or 1 liter pot on the Amicus. You need a lot of volume of snow, to get 500ml of water since snow has a lot of air. You can create a snow quarry next to your kitchen by stomping down a 2 x 2 foot area of snow and letting in sinter up (freeze) into denser chunks, that you can then melt. If you are travelling with others, make sure they don’t clean their dishes or dump gray water in the snow quarry.

What pot do you use in the summer with the Amicus. For one person, you are going to need at least a 1.5 liter if not a 2 liter pot.

If cost is not an issue, spend the $48 and get the Kovea and a 2 liter OpenCountry aluminum pot.

The main advantage of a white gas Whisperlite IMO is that fuel is cheap.

[Nathan H]

thanks for the insight, Bruce.

My source of water will be the 2L I’ll be carrying with me into the trail, and whatever snow I can melt. I’ve done one trip with the Soto as my snowmelter, and I used a 1.1L GSI pot. During the summer, I use a 600ml or 900ml pot.

I feel like I was being lazy with melting snow last trip and ended up not drinking much. I felt a bit impatient waiting for snow to melt, and didn’t want to waste gas. I don’t know if switching to a remote canister stove will change that, especially if the performance isn’t that different.

Between a bigger pot and a remote canister stove, which do you think is more important for snow melting? 1.5-2L pot + amicus vs 1L pot + Kovea spider? I liked that my 1L pot didn’t take up TOO much space in the pack. I guess I can stuff clothes into the 2L pot to be more space efficient too…

[Bruce Tolley]

Nathan
The short answer is the larger pot that will be stable and balanced on the stove you take. A two liter pot might balance on the Amicus and that might work. I have an Amicus but use it with my 0.95 liter pot.

I usually recommend that folks do not spend too much on the first couple of snow camping trips since often they decide they do not like it. I have been on trips where folks use alcohol stoves and a TrailDesigns Caldera to melt snow in a 1.3 liter pot. On some trips, I have used my twig wood burning BushBuddy to stretch my fuel.

I am not sure whether you are on skis, snow shoes, or booting it across snow but you are losing a lot of moisture from perspiration and respiration. In winter since you are not thinking you are hot it is actually very easy to get dehydrated which can lead to mistakes and even hypothermia.

So you need to bring enough fuel to melt the same quantity of water if not more than you consume for a summer trip (drinking, cooking, hygiene). For me that can be 4 to 8 liters. I use a 50 liter pack in the winter so everything fits.

So the advantage of a larger pot, it you plan to get it going early and melt enough snow for your whole dinner before dinner. I then melt enough snow for my night time drinking and breakfast, if not also for my morning hike.. I have 1 rigid 1 liter Nalgene, 2 collapsible 1.5 liter Nalgene canteens, and a MSR dromolite. The rigid Nalgene becomes a hot water bottle and the collapsibles are buried so they do not freeze overnight. That is a lot of water since I am usually sharing with folks who forgot to protect their water from freezing.:-(

[Nathan H]

I definitely need to keep an eye out to drink more water. Are wood stoves allowed in the Backcountry during the winter? I noticed it’s pretty much prohibited during other seasons here in most of CA

[Ryan Jordan]

Maybe try a pit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kykjYEm4I7M

[Bruce Tolley]

Burning wood in California backcountry in winter.
In Yosemite it is banned even in winter except for cases where it is a life saving emergency.

I believe all the Wilderness Areas maintain the wood fire ban above the same elevations where wood burning is banned during summer.

So if you have a fire permit, that leaves you all the areas of the National Forest or BLM land that are not designated wilderness. I recommend checking the web page of the National Forest you want to visit to get exact detail on current fire regulations. During the drought there were areas of the Ventana Wilderness where all fires were banned even in winter (and were it does not snow except at the top of Junipero Serra Peak).

Along SR88 near Carson Pass there is one protected nature area marked on all the maps where you are not supposed to even camp in winter.

You can use a BushBuddy in a very leave no trace (LNT way). Other fires just create a pile of ashes that mar the landscape for the summer visitors.

[Bruce Tolley]

The pit method in Ryan’s video would help. Some form of insulation like a small piece of wood, or even cut piece of closed cell foam, like in the video can help a lot.

Also, adding 2 inches of water in the bottom of your snow melting pot can accelerate the melting of snow. Since water is 32 degrees F, the snow that comes into contact with the water is warmed up to 32 degrees! Once you have a slurry in your pot, you can add small chunks of partially frozen snow from your stomped snow quarry.

[Nathan H]

thanks for the advice guys. glad to know I can easily make the amicus work instead of getting more stoves.

[Edward John M]

All of the above advice combined.

Use an insulated base plus a stability base and screening from the wind and the biggest pot you can fit into your system, the wider the pot the more efficiently the stove works. Even tho my usual operating temperatures are not very cold I still need at least 3 litres of drinking water each day on top of my needs for cooking. I always carry 2 pots during winter because it is more efficient but I just weighed my normal large billy, 3 litres/ Aluminium, and it masses 255 grams with the lid. Technique helps also. Because I often take food that actually needs cooking rather than simply rehydrating I find I can melt quite a lot of snow by using the bigger pot as a lid over my cooking pot, standard Arctic fuel saving technique. A skirted pot is even more efficient but my experiments there are not quite right yet

[Bruce Tolley]

Nathan
If you are in a pinch for an insulating base and do not have any pieces of wood handy.

Find a cardboard box, cut a long rectangular piece of cardboard, fold in half to get the size you need. (Or just double up two pieces the same size.) Use duck tape to tape the two sides (pieces) together.
have a great trip!
write a trip report.
BTW Mike Clelland who used to write for BPL, co-wrote an excellent book on snow travel and snow camping: Allen and Mike’s Really Cool Backcountry Ski Book: Traveling and Camping Skills for a Winter Environment, 2nd edition, 2007, Falcon Books, $12.95

[Nathan H]

thanks guys! Can’t believe i got so much info on this :D

[Bruce Tolley]

No problem. Don’t forget that you need to bring enough fuel to melt the snow and to bring your water to boil. So your fuel consumption might as much if not more than 3X your summer usage,

[David Thomas]

Keeping some water from the last batch of melting is almost required to efficiently melt the next batch.  Otherwise, you’ll have density 0.1 to 0.3 snow that melts down to almost nothing.  If you have at least an inch (in a broad pot) or two inches (in a tall pot) of warm water, you can shove a lot more snow into and have density 1.0 ice water for the next run.

I usually bring a HX pot for snow camping.  Even if I’m not melting snow, I’m drinking a lot more warm drinks (tea, hot chocolate, cider, coffee, hot toddies, etc) so the pot weight is mostly or more than cancelled by the fuel savings (plus the convenience of faster melt/boil times).

As mentioned above, bring more warm drink mixes you like.  That helps keep up your intake.

As in summer, if you’re peeing dark yellow or haven’t peed in hours, down a liter right then and step it up for the rest of the trip.

[Bruce Tolley]

+ 1 to David’s comments.
Enjoy the Zen of melting snow into water while you sit on your closed cell pad enjoying the Alpen glow (or huddled in the vestibule of your tent. :_))

[David Thomas]

“for an insulating base. . . .Find a cardboard box”

Better yet, dumpster-dive behind the green grocer and score some waxed cardboard.  Waterproof and stiffer than a lot of other cardboard a 5″ x 5″ square makes a fine stove base and doubles as a cutting board and an excellent emergency fire starter.  When it gets too funky from cutting board use, burn it in the last night’s campfire and cut a new one back home.

Waxed cardboard is one of those standard materials I keep around the house (like 1/8″ through 1-1/8″ plywood, 2x lumber, aluminum tubing from crutches, corrugated plastic campaign signs, stop-sign-gauge sheet aluminum, compressed O2, N2, CO2, and He and a few score of liquid chemicals).

Roger likes 3-ply door-skin / 3mm / 1/8″ plywood.  I’d varnish it or use a food-grade finish on it so it absorbed less water and food odor.  It’s a slightly better stove base, but not nearly as good as a fire starter.

If either is hard for you to find, PM me and I’ll snail mail you some.

Back to the original question: I use canister stoves in winter almost exclusively (rather than white gas).  Usually a BRS-3000T although I have to be really careful about the balance of a 2- or 3-liter pot on it.  Almost any other canister stove would be more stable.  A Moulder Strip makes canister stoves work below -25F, the on-off convenience saves fuel, and it’s far easier for kids to use without scorching their eyebrows off.  Second most often, I’m using green, 1-pound, Coleman propane cylinders in winter if I’m sledding stuff in across a frozen lake (which tend to be really flat) and it’s the cheapest fuel if you refill them from bulk BBQ cylinders.  It would take an odd set of conditions for me to use white gas anymore – a long trip with a big group and heavy stove use demands (lots of snow melt, long cook times, etc).

[Nathan H]

David, thanks for the offer. I will just use my zlite to provide some insulation from the ground. :)

[Edward John M]

I make and use dedicated stove bases for snow. 3mm plywood to size needed [ I think bigger is always better here within reason] topped with aluminium flashing and insulated with some CCF or similar foam. Overkill most times but when it isn’t I am glad I have it.  All glued together with some cheap roofing silicon. The width of the flashing I have on hand determines the size of the plywood

[Eric Blumensaadt]

STOVE BASE:

1. circular piece of 3/16 exterior plywood slightly wider than the stove legs/canister base
2. spray paint with hi temp engine or exhaust paint (When gas spills on it and burns there’s no problem.)
3. bolt on rotating tabs used to hold in screens on doors to hold down stove legs or keep canister centered

Been using this for several years with my Whisperlite Universal in white gas mode.

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