Sleeping mats – shape and redundacy

I can’t answer the second, but I will say that comparing my Exped Downmat 7UL (rectangular) to my Synmat Hyperlite medium (tapered), the former is more comfortable. I’m not a big guy, I haven’t got a good place to put my elbows on the Hyperlite. If I were to do it over, I’d probably get the wide Hyperlite.

In the winter I’ve been carrying a closed cell mat in addition to my neoair, so I guess that’s my backup. I have an exped ul7 that I rarely carry but I do think it’s more comfortable than my x-lite, but never really thought it was because my feet were crowded. A few years back I was carrying a ul7 in the winter and it did pop a seam in the night which made for some uncomfortable sleeping since it got a large bubble in the middle but it did hold air.

There is this http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/downmat-tt-9-m which on paper gives built in redundancy (separate and replaceable/repairable individual tubes). It is however heavy at about 1kg and in my eyes unproven since there are no long term reports (the things only been out 1-2 years) but I guess by design it “safer” than any other single mate but perhaps not two matts.

I wonder whether your idea (inflatable + CCFoam) is a cheaper/lighter alternative and as good as it gets safety wise. CCF are so bulky though.

Re bulge – that would be annoying but at least not life threatening.

I have both mummy shaped and rectangular pads and notice no difference in comfort.  But I’m a rotisserie side sleeper.  As for backup, I’ve never carried one and (knock on wood) never needed one.  I’ve often wondered if that’s stupid.

Ditto on no difference with a tapered mat. I am also a rotisserie side sleeper, but feet stay together in the cold.  My new 20F quilt has a sewn footbox.

I haven’t snow camped lately, but when I did we were taught to have both CCF and inflatable.  The closed cell pad is handy around camp.  You can sculpt a chase lounge in the snow (or more realistically a camp kitchen), but you need that insulated pad to sit on.  I’m convinced the CCF below the inflatable pad adds significant warmth.  It might even catch a stray foot if your not centered on your tapered inflatable.

Googd point about CCF potentially catching stray feet falling of a tapered mat. I’m mostly a back and sometimes front sleeper.

What do you guys mean by rotiserrie – just that you switch from one side to another, or are you also spending significant time on front/back?

Maybe a Neoair xtherm with rectangular CCF mat would be a nice option for safety as well as comfort and weight (well as much as taking two mats can be light) – these kind of mats are too expensive not to “like” (if I decide tapered does not suit me).

Agree re “sit pad” (most useful in snow but even for non snow). Perhaps I could live with a short CCF mat as emergency backup.

Just saw I made a typo in the topic heading. How can I fix that?

Tried mummy pads and did not get on with them.

In winter I use a Ridge rest as part of my sleeping system. If my inflatable pad failed I would use the foam pad, if I got cold I would double it over and curl up in a ball in it :-)

in winter a ccf short pad is quite useful as you can use it to sit on at stops or at camp

if you do get one for such a purpose … Get a cheap smooth one

a ridgerest is a biatch to clean the snow off, if you dont itll melt when u use it in yr tent and get stuff all damp

a zlite is a bit better

;)

I’ve never noticed any real difference between a mummy or rectangular inflatable. The rectangular mat was slightly heavier (13oz vs 12oz) in the neoairs. But, this isn’t really noticeable.

The rectangular neoair mats did have an edge bleed problem with heat, though. Your bag or quilt rarely covered enough of the pad to prevent this, so, I would put my CCF over it to help with insulation. The convective currents inside the neoair caused the air to mix and lowered the overall comfort temp. The newer mummy one seems to be a bit better in that regard.

Yes, I usually have a 4-5oz backup CCF pad (NightLite.) In warmer weather, it just acts as a pack frame. In about a third of the cases, I use it to help level my sleeping area. Sometimes it helped a lot on a hard floor (lean-to.) In a pinch, I could use it to sleep on, if I happened to loose one to a bubble. Never had one puncture, though. Note that after 5-6 years, the bottom will get weak and have a general air loss. No real leak can be detected. The Thermorest people do NOT cover just wearing out.

For mummys vs. rectangular pads, I just don’t see much weight advantage to the mummy pads.  It seems more like a drilling holes in your toothbrush kind of thing.  Plus for whatever reason, my feet seem to kick around more than any other body part (almost like that term was developed for feet!).

If you are concerned about emergency situations, I will give a non-LNT option.  When I was a kid and we winter camped (on private land) we usually cut down cedar bows to sleep on.  They were quite insulating.  I would consider this only as a last resort now.

What do you guys mean by rotiserrie – just that you switch from one side to another, or are you also spending significant time on front/back?

For me it’s just side to side.  I have a back problem that prevents me from sleeping on my back or stomach.

Another nice thing about a CCF pad as part of a combination is for use against cold wet ground, frozen ground or snow if there is a campfire nearby.  After a cinder hits a CCF pad, it is still a CCF pad.  But an inflatable is no longer inflatable.

I like that bomb-proof aspect of a CCF pad, especially while snow camping.  Also, if at least one member of the party has a CCF pad, then you’ve got more options if you need to make a splint.  For long, straight air splints, inflatables are great (but you have to keep checking the stiffness so they don’t get floppy nor too tight and cut off circulation).  But to splint an elbow in a sling or splint a wrist with cut-outs for fingers, etc, carving up a CCF pad gives you lots of options to practice your origami skills.

I think of CCF pads as semi-consumables.  Consumed far more slowly then food, fuel, toilet paper, or DEET, but used and abused enough to be replaced after 100 nights of use.  Even then, toss it in the car trunk in case you need to change a tire in the winter or, God forbid, put on tire chains.  Tire chains are always installed and removed right were the rain stops and the snow starts (i.e. in really, really cold slush).

Thought + 2 questions:

1. A cheap way to determine whether a mummy style (expensive inflatable) pad suits would be to carve up an old CCF mat and try it.
2. Instead of using CCF for redundancy, what about 2 inflatables (both summer R values but combined suitable for winter)? That would be preferable to me if it worked (less bulk and more flexible arrangement unless you like sleeping on CCF) Use one in summer (where failure is not life threatening) and both in winter. Not as foolproof as CCF but I’ll take my chances. But… although I’ve seen it posted elsewhere on this site.. I would be concerned that the R values are not necessarily additive. Assuming you can get the pads to nest nicely (a couple of elastic bands?) on top of each other… is this really the case. Anyone tried it? I could imagine a scenario where the volume of the pads is sufficient that it feels cool/your body cannot warm both mats, i.e. the effective insulation is not the “sum of the parts” in use.
3. I’ve got a Downmat 7 which I find fine outside of snow use (but usually still in winter conditions in Australia – I would guess it’s fine in summer too – not obnoxiously hot, much like a bed can be used throughout the year). Can the same be said of the mats employing reflective insulation (e.g. neoair Xtherm) or do they behave differently outside of very cold conditions?

I find having the CCF pad very warm.   Much warmer than all those charts say it should be in the winter.    I wouldn’t leave home without it if I were sleeping on snow.

“Instead of using CCF for redundancy, what about 2 inflatables (both summer R values but combined suitable for winter)”

Speaking of redundancy; there are several threads in BPL which speak directly to the unreliability of air mattress R values, and I highly recommend looking at them for some more in-depth discussion on that specific issue.

While opinions vary, there still seems to be a general consensus that CCF pads are a requisite in sub zero camping. In a nutshell; CCF pads have a proven track record, tend to feel “warmer” contrary to R value claims, don’t have a risk of failure, and can be used for many things other than just sleeping on. I personally supplement my standard Neorest with a single 1/8″ ccf pad on top, and it works pretty well until right around freezing. Below freezing, I either sandwich the Neo with a second 1/8″ pad, or I switch my NeoRest out for a 20 year old self inflating LE Thermarest.

I find the 1/8″ ccf pads to be quite malleable, and really aren’t that bulky compared to their thicker cousins, in my opinion. And as David said, thinking of them as a semi-consumable is probably a good idea.

(On that note, I’d bet some old ccf pads duct taped together would make a sweet ground cloth for use under the tent. I have been using Reflectix under my bigger tents in this way for years, and it makes a huge difference for the inhabitants, especially their knee caps.)

Just saw I made a typo in the topic heading. How can I fix that?

You can’t edit that, nor your first post, BTW. It’s a special bug feature unique to BPL!

For years I used a full length CCF under 3/4 length thermarest for snow camping. Then switched to CCF under NeoAir. Only once ever had the inflatable go bad, and that was a slow leak – wake up cold every 3 hours, reinflate, go back to sleep.  Last year I went to an Xtherm by itself. The wide mummy version that is 25″ at the shoulders but has a taper. I like. The width at the top keeps my elbows off the snow, and I have no problems with wandering feet. Nice and warm – warmer than the Neo and the CCF together –  and comfy. I did not carry a backup CCF. I do use a piece of 1/8″ EVA foam , about 30×75, as a groundsheet, which serves mostly to keep me from sliding around on the snow (floorless shelter). During the day I can use that, folded up, as a seat pad.

I do have some uneasiness about being without backup, but so many years of no problems lulls me into thinking it will be okay, and it’s nice not to have the extra weight.

However, the numbers are different now than when I made my selection; my NeoAir 3/4 was 9 ounces and rated 2.5 R-value; the NeoAir Xlite is 8 oz. and rated 3.2. My Xtherm is 20 oz, and a full length ridgerest is 14 oz I think – so that’s 22 oz, but then it’s only 20″ wide.

The other thing about the backup pad idea is that I know I wouldn’t sleep worth beans on just the CCF – so if  I was doing it that way and the inflatable went bad I’m heading home anyway. The difference is, how unpleasant is that one night during which the pad fails?

Sometimes a mummy shaped pad will fit in a shelter whereas a rectangular may not. I had a long/wide rectangular pad that would not fit in the diamond-shaped floor or my Lightheart Gear Solo shelter, the corners of the pad were too much, but a mummy shaped pad of the same length and width will fit.

Size is irrelevant as a LW mat to me is what a “regular” mat is to others.

I prefer a “mummy” shape so it fits better with mats in a north-south orientation if needed.  I have my feet off the sides a bit but I generally leave some clothing on the floor of my tent to insulate and pad. Honestly, I’m really picky about beds at home but when I finished my 4th 12 hour day in a row I can pretty much sleep on rocks and be just fine!

As with others, I actually do sometimes carry a 3′ long section of closed cell foam that weighs almost nothing that I use to lounge in camp and can be an emergency pad if mine fails and I can’t fix it. Not necessary on close in backpacking in summer but in remote, hard to access areas with cold weather it could be a life saver.