sleeping bag, again

A synthetic and down sleeping bag with the same degree rating, assuming the degree rating is accurate and based on the same standards, will be the same warmth. Down has more warmth for it’s weight. For example, a 32 degree down sleeping might weight 19 ounces while a synthetic fill sleeping bag that provides the same warmth might weigh 34 ounces. Down compacts very small in your pack. I stuff mine into the bottom of my pack and put everything else on top.

Down has more warmth for the weight but it loses a lot of it’s insulative value when it gets wet or damp. Synthetic bags retain more insulation when wet or damp. Some people in very wet or humid climates prefer synthetic. For most people in most situations I think down works out best. Even in wet climates down works out fine, you can keep your bag dry with common sense, it’s mostly dealing with multiple days of extreme wetness and humidity when moisture creeps into everything.

If you are serious about backpacking I would invest first in a high end sleeping bag instead of buying a cheaper sleeping bag and upgrading later (more expensive overall). Some good brands to look at would be western mountaineering, feathered friends, or marmot.

Consider Montbell as well – their “spiral” baffles help you feel less constricted in a mummy bag (to the extent that’s possible).

I bought a WM Terralite last year, and I absolutely love it. If you desire extra girth, this bag is the one. Due to the large girth, it’s not the most efficient bag as far as warmth:weight goes, but it is just so comfortable, and it has kept me nice and toasty at 25F (when used with cap 3 base layers and an Xtherm). I can sleep in it in the “figure 4” position comfortably. I can’t say enough about this bag, from the design details to the outstanding workmanship. I think the continuous baffles are very smart for adjusting warmth, and the zipper design/quilt mode are very well thought out. We originally bought it for my wife, but after using it for a couple of nights I’m calling it “ours” and slowly transitioning it to “mine.”  :)

I need to pay close attention to compressed and uncompressed size right?

Not unless you have a tiny backpack or an enormous winter-rated synthetic sleeping bag. Warmth, weight, construction quality, and price are far more important.

Synthetic vs down with the same degree rating

Some people claim synthetic “feels” subjectively warmer, I’m skeptical. As Justin said, synthetic superior for extended wet conditions. Keeping down dry isn’t that hard most of the time. Synthetic bags last only a few years for most people before they lose loft; down bags can last decades.

borrowed a 30 degree synth REI bag. I dont think it was warm enough

Make sure you have a warm enough sleeping pad. I thought my 30° F sleeping bag wasn’t warm enough until I switched from Z-lite foam pads to much thicker and warmer inflatable pads. The inflatable pads are heavier, but far more comfortable, and a good night’s sleep is really important to me.

(Temperature ratings)

If you compare EN ratings or loft between different manufacturers, you are comparing apples to apples. Everyone sleeps warmer or colder depending on many other variables. All ratings are ballpark guidelines.

no dri on the duck. Big deal?

Not really. Jury’s still out on the long-term value of “dri” down treatments.

The Zissous are heavier

Yep. Unless price is a very big factor, buy something lighter.

WM Terralite

I’ve used the Western Mountaineering Megalite (30° F rating) for years, and it’s tight. A few years ago I started using it as a quilt, and will never go back. You don’t need the extra zippers or weight of the Terralite to use a sleeping bag as a quilt, and you want a footbox most of the time anyway. Note WM rates the Terralite at 25° F; for the same weight you could get the Ultralite rated 20° F. I’ve used WM bags for over 30 years and think they are among the best – my Megalite is 14 years old and going strong. But my next purchase (someday …) will likely be an Enlightened Equipment quilt. Lighter and simpler for the same loft.

more girth, perhaps too much

If you are truly claustrophobic in a skinny mummy bag, you’ll want the girth. Try some skinny bags in a store before deciding. Too much girth means you sleep slightly colder from pumping warm air out as you move. More importantly, you’ll be carrying a heavier bag than you need.

Hope this helps.

— Rex

Thank you all. I wish the Marmot Hydrogen was a 20!

some folks have found down not to last all too long under heavy use …

nor have we heard too much about loft degradation with APEX quilts … its not like a ton of folks are complaining of the MLD spirit and EE prodigy quilts going flat …

What I can say is that over the course of 600+ days out on the trail I went through two (2) animal down sleeping bags. With the first bag 100% of the down had to be replaced. The second time 60% of the down was replaced by the manufacturer, after the other 40% was “revived”, whatever that means. In both bags all of the animal down was 800fp and I used a Sea to Summit eVENT Compression Dry Sack 100% of the time.

There has been a long and often meaningless internet debate over compressing synthetic gear (and animal down for that fact too) and I have always stayed out of that whole issue – I just do not care about it enough to get involved. Experience and time on the trail tells you something very clear: All gear breaks down when used. If you don’t want that to happen, stay home.

https://hikelighter.com/2015/08/29/mountain-laurel-designs-spirit-quilt-28/

I have been using Western Mountaineering sleeping bags for the first half of my outdoor career and depending on the climate I was alternating between the Summerlite, the Ultralite, the Versalite and the Puma. Generally speaking the bags are high quality and very durable. After about one year of constant use the slider of the zipper can wear out. As all WM bags have two sliders and usually only the top one that is most used wears out this is not a life-threatening problem. The slider can be replaced very easily if you have the appropriate spare. After about half a year of constant use the down in the bag will start clumping and thus reduce the warming capacity of the bag. Washing will restore part of the loft, but still it is my experience that no matter how and how often you wash the bags, after one year of constant use they will have reduced loft so much that the original temperature rating will not be achieved any more. After 2 years of constant use the down has so much deteriorated that the bag is practically useless and even washing will not restore it any more..

After a lot of problems with clumping down due to extended use and/or humid conditions I have now changed to synthetic quilts. I am using a BPL 240 quilt for 3 seasons and a Enlightened Prodigy 20 for colder temperatures. I have used both quilts for around 300 nights without any significant deterioration of loft or any other substantial defects. I realise that about every outdoor book and forum will tell you differently, but in my personal experience synthetic is much more durable than down.

http://christine-on-big-trip.blogspot.ca/p/what-breaks-when-and-why.html

i use both down and synth … for most folks down works just fine

;)

So by getting the WM Terralite at 25/quiltable, I could kill 2 birds in one stone, for warm and cold nights?

I use the WM Megalite as a quilt even on the coldest nights, paired with a warm hat (which I carry anyway.) Lots of people use quilts in very cold weather. Quilts aren’t just for warm weather, and most sleeping bags can be used as backpacking quilts without extra zippers like the Terralite. Quoting WM:

With both zippers open this bag can make a fairly wide “camper van” comforter.

A quilt designed for backpacking is usually lighter than a sleeping bag for the same insulation, dropping the bottom fabric, some down, and zippers.

— Rex

Christine’s nearly continuous use of sleeping bags and quilts is rare, and her experiences might inform people with similar needs, or people who want their bags & quilts to last a really long time. My 14-year-old down WM Megalite looks and lofts almost like new, after an estimated 200 nights of use. If the down completely flattened tomorrow, I’d be happy with that longevity. I have a roughly 35-year-old WM down sleeping bag I still use as a loaner.

I bought two North Face synthetic bags several years ago for whitewater rafting. They lost so much loft after a few years of light use that they’re barely adequate for sleeping indoors at home. No, I didn’t store them compressed.

Apex quilts are much heavier than equally warm down quilts from the same source, e.g. Enlightened Equipment. I don’t have much trouble keeping my down sleeping bag dry. So the only Apex advantage for me would be cost. I’d rather carry less weight.

YMMV.

— Rex

The Terralite is one fantastic bag and doubles up well as a bag or a huge quilt. Having said that not all the WM bags are tight. They list the girth in all their bags and some or I think 64″ or 65″ in long. They also sell a couple of bag expanders for various temperatures which could also give you some additional room in their standard bags. I think the Versalite and Megalite are both on the wider side. The highlight on the other hand is crazy tight and I converted it to a quilt with some webbing loops so it can be used as a quilt in the Katabatic style.

Honestly I wouldn’t obsess too much on a few ounces where sleep comfort is concerned. If a cozy warm bag, nice comfy pad and a pillow add up to a 1lb or even more of weight it can be well worth it in exchange for a good night’s sleep instead of going for the very lightest kit available.