Sleep system upgrade: down vs synthetic

If the advantages of synthetic aren’t relevant to where/how you camp and the cost isn’t a big deal then get the down.

I have the Prodigy because I am in a wet environment, with tarp that can get condensation on my feet and my dog who joins me when she can isn’t always dry.

I consider my climate also as wet and still I would always op for a down bag (which I already have and use for a long time).

Another vote for down. In the UL world, 11oz is a significant weight difference, imo.

And a well made down bag should last forever. Synthetic will decay over time, no matter what. My kids are using a TNF Superlight and Purple Haze from my kit in the mid/late 80’s.

Purple Haze…. ahh… Obviously a Jimmy reference, but I got that bag the year Purple Rain came out.

Rest in Peace, Prince :(

Hey Matthew, welcome. I live do most of my trips in MN as well (and actually work for EE), and I still go with down for my first choice, even on canoe camping trips. With the appropriate precautions in most cases your gear shouldn’t be getting truly wet anyway, and while humidity can reduce the effectiveness of your insulation somewhat, in normal use I’m not usually pushing too close to that edge to where it becomes a big concern. And, not only is it lighter, but it also can pack quite a bit smaller.

That said, HYOH, YMMV, YOLO, etc.

Down. But it requires a bit more care to reap it’s rewards.

1. Keep it as dry as possible. Damp is not real bad, Your body heat will dry it out rather quickly, under a tarp. But wet is NEVER. That’s OK. I do not ever sleep in mud puddles.
2. Get the wider, longer version, unless you happen to be short. Tossing and turning can leave you uncovered. Generally the wide version is nicer. Same for the long. If it get fairly cold, I like a Nightlite over my Neoair. So, folding it under my feet makes up the difference for keeping my feet warm, too. Besides anchoring it into position. If it is REAL cold, you can stick your head under for a minute. But try not to go to sleep that way. It will condense making the down inside get damp, again.
3. Down also responds better to variable conditions. Cold and dry conditions usually means fully open down plumes. You probably won’t perspire much either in cold weather. If it is warmer, you will perspire a bit, even if you don’t feel wet. This means the down will collapse some in heat as you sleep under it. So, it is less warm when you don’t need it. Synthetics do not do respond to your body’s regulation.
4. As was said, longevity. I had an old canvas & down in plastic cells from the military cica Korean War. Over 40 years old. It is just pretty heavy at 6 pounds, but good to -20 or so. Down that is stored dry will last for hundreds of years. There was a case of some found in an old “Incan?” tomb about that old.
5. It retains resale value because of the longevity. A $250 bag 15 years ago still sells for more than I paid for it new.

If you frequently do trips in high ambient humidity, often end up damp, or are not careful with your gear synthetic can be a good option.  Otherwise down is both lighter and lasts a lot longer.

Ooops, I got called away….

6. Saving volume will save weight. Down compresses FAR better than synthetics. Usually smaller is lighter, though not always. At the very least you can drop from a 3200ci pack to a 2200ci pack and save that weight anyway. I can fit my 40degree summer bag (used for about 4 months into an xxxsmall bag, around 3.5″x7″.) Using a small waterproof dry/compression bag, I have dumped my canoe on occasion, and, my long johns, socks, down jacket and bag were all dry at the end of the day and only fill 1/3 of the main compartment of a 2200ci pack (and I don’t need a liner.) Hiking in the rain is the same.

What I can say is that over the course of 600+ days out on the trail I went through two (2) animal down sleeping bags. With the first bag 100% of the down had to be replaced. The second time 60% of the down was replaced by the manufacturer, after the other 40% was “revived”, whatever that means. In both bags all of the animal down was 800fp and I used a Sea to Summit eVENT Compression Dry Sack 100% of the time.

There has been a long and often meaningless internet debate over compressing synthetic gear (and animal down for that fact too) and I have always stayed out of that whole issue – I just do not care about it enough to get involved. Experience and time on the trail tells you something very clear: All gear breaks down when used. If you don’t want that to happen, stay home.

https://hikelighter.com/2015/08/29/mountain-laurel-designs-spirit-quilt-28/

I have been using Western Mountaineering sleeping bags for the first half of my outdoor career and depending on the climate I was alternating between the Summerlite, the Ultralite, the Versalite and the Puma. Generally speaking the bags are high quality and very durable. After about one year of constant use the slider of the zipper can wear out. As all WM bags have two sliders and usually only the top one that is most used wears out this is not a life-threatening problem. The slider can be replaced very easily if you have the appropriate spare. After about half a year of constant use the down in the bag will start clumping and thus reduce the warming capacity of the bag. Washing will restore part of the loft, but still it is my experience that no matter how and how often you wash the bags, after one year of constant use they will have reduced loft so much that the original temperature rating will not be achieved any more. After 2 years of constant use the down has so much deteriorated that the bag is practically useless and even washing will not restore it any more..

After a lot of problems with clumping down due to extended use and/or humid conditions I have now changed to synthetic quilts. I am using a BPL 240 quilt for 3 seasons and a Enlightened Prodigy 20 for colder temperatures. I have used both quilts for around 300 nights without any significant deterioration of loft or any other substantial defects. I realise that about every outdoor book and forum will tell you differently, but in my personal experience synthetic is much more durable than down.

http://christine-on-big-trip.blogspot.ca/p/what-breaks-when-and-why.html

i use down and synth … more down these days

there are ways to keep your down dry in humid conditions … and by humid conditions i dont mean some rain here and there … but rather non stop no sun rain for days where the moisture buildup will eventually reduce the loft

Carol was using a Valandre Shocking Blue, which lost almost 20% of its loft for a weight gain of water of around 10%. I was using an Arc X, which only weighs a pound dry, gained 25% of its weight in water (interestingly, about the same weight gain as the Shocking Blue – 4 oz or so), but with far less down to buffer the effect, lost an amazing 80% of its loft.

Neither bag was particularly “flat” this morning – we speculate that the primary mechanism by which so much loft is lost is during packing – stuffing a bag with moisture on its shell into a stuff sack, causing that moisture to migrate into the insulation.

In these conditions, synthetic will delay failure, but not necessarily prevent it. My synthetic jacket, a MontBell Thermawrap Parka, which I wore in camp and on the trail at rest while it was snowing/slushing, gained about 25% of its weight as well, but lost less than 10% of its loft.

http://ryanjordan.com/blog/2006/02/down_gear_in_sc/

as to synth degradation … we havent heard too much about the cottage manufacturers synth climashield quilts degrading, especially the apex ones

;)

It depends on how you can care for it while camping.

If you can keep it dry, down is lighter, takes less room in pack, as people have said.

It just depends on your style of camping and experience.

Rarely, some event can happen like falling into a stream or you can have an unusual rain event + tent failure that results in the quilt getting wet, at which time it would be good for it to be synthetic.  So it’s like a survival item.

If you have wet clothes you can get into a synthetic bag and dry off after a few hours.  You can’t do that with down.  So, just make sure you take off wet clothes or let them dry off from body heat before getting into quilt.  I have found that damp clothes are okay.

I used to have synthetic quilt and vest.  A few years ago I switched over to down quilt – no problem.  I just made a down vest, I’ll see if I totally switch over to it.

One strategy is to have down quilt and synthetic vest or jacket.  The synthetic provides some survival advantage in case of wetness.  It’s a smaller area so the penalty of being synthetic is less.

With water-repellant down, there seem to be very few drawbacks to down.

Down is more compressible, but does that matter?  I think it’s better to let all your odd-sized and harder stuff kind of float among the quilt, or nicely fold your synthetic quilt and place it against the back of your frameless pack.

For summer temps like 40*F at night, the weight differential becomes smaller and more dependent on quilt size, straps, etc.

Also, if you have no experience with quilts, it can take some experimenting to find the right size for your build and sleep habits, especially if you’re sleeping at lower temps.  So experimenting with the cheaper Prodigy might be a better option before deciding if you want to switch to a Revelation or Enigma.  But then again, you can pretty easily resell a down quilt if the size is not right.  So for 20′ I’d say go for the Revelation (or Enigma) with DownTek.  Deciding whether it’s worth it to pay for better fill power is then a whole nother issue.

Thanks to everyone for your feedback.  I found your comments and wisdom quite helpful.  I ended up purchasing the EE Revelation 20 degree quilt.  They have an option of adding a heftier denier nylon stripe at each end of the quilt for weather protection, but it did not seem like this would be important for me (I did not see other manufacturers offering such a thing so not sure how important it is overall). I sleep in a good one-person tent that vents well and have made it through torrential rains with minimal to no condensation to speak of. I guess if I was concerned I would probably enclose the foot box in my rain coat which I always have along.  Any of you have any wisdom on the stripes?   The only downside is the estimated 10-12 week wait – ugh, the anticipation and my new quilt missing out on several adventures! Hopefully it makes it in time for my Isle Royale expedition.   Anyway, thanks again to you all.  Kindly, Matthew

Maybe certain synth insulations degrade faster? I had a mountain hardwear 35 degree synth bag that I ditched after something like 60 nights of use. I bought it one winter, it was nice and warm through that winter, and then used it the following spring, summer, and fall with lots of warmer weather. I probably hadn’t noticed the insulation decrease because I was using it so much in warm weather. Then winter came suddenly and I used it temps around freezing and froze my butt off. I took a good look at the bag and realized how flat it had gotten, it was more like a 50 degree bag. That turned me off from buying anything made from synth puff.