Shoulder Season/Mild Winter Apex Puffy

[Erik Norseman]

Hi folks,

New to MYOG and just getting into making some bathtub floors and tarps. Got my sights set on insulated Apex clothing soon. Wondering if anyone can share builds and/or recommendations for something like the following:

Apex puffy suitable for down to -8C to -10C. Hoping for max 1lbs. But sub 400g would be best.

• What weight of Apex would you use? I have access to 3.6osy and 6.0osy
• Any estimates for finished weight with ~10d fabrics?
• Is it easier to design/make a pullover (either with or without kangaroo pocket) or a jacket with zipper (probably no pockets but not sure yet). Might just do some drop pockets on inside to instead of hand pockets

thanks in advance foe your wisdom!

[Jerry Adams]

Body is about 0.8 yd2, arms are 0.6 yd2

10d fabric is 0.7 oz/yd2.  Inner + outer + 3.6 osy apex is 5 oz/yd2

So, body is 4 oz, arms are 3 oz.

I put on zipper because my biggest problem is over heating and sweating – full front zipper allows me to easily shed about half of the insulation value.  About 0.5 ounce for #3.

I used to do 2.5 ozy apex, but the there are too many gaps.  3.5 ozy better.  6 ozy is too heavy and bulky – if you want that much warmth better to use down, although that logic is more applicable to sleeping bags because they have more area

I prefer vest – the insulation around torso is more efficient because your torso skin temperature is higher.  I don’t like my arms to be impeded when I move them around.

If you sew arms to the body, start at the top (shoulder) on one side and sew down to armpit.  Then the other side.  Hide any imperfections in the armpit.  Like, if there’s too much fabric on arm or body you can just make a fold.  As I do this repeatedly, it becomes easier, tricky the first time.

What I do is put lines on one piece of fabric where you want the edge of finished garment to be.  Then, sew all around, through inner fabric, apex, outer fabric.  Then cut the fabric 1 inch bigger all around.  Then cut off the inner fabric and apex as close to the row of stitches as possible, do not accidentally nick the fabric you want to remain.  Then fold over twice the outer fabric, to hide the unfinished edge, and sew through the two layers of folded outer fabric, inner fabric, apex, outer fabric.

[Jerry Adams]

My vest is always a mid layer so no need for pockets.  Pockets are on my outside layer jacket

[Erik Norseman]

Body is about 0.8 yd2, arms are 0.6 yd2

10d fabric is 0.7 oz/yd2.  Inner + outer + 3.6 osy apex is 5 oz/yd2

So, body is 4 oz, arms are 3 oz.

Thanks Jerry. So you are saying that the finished garment with 3.6osy will be 7oz? You are saying that the body is about 0.8  square yards and arms are about 0.6 square yards = 1.4 square yards total.

EDIT: Think I get it. The more I read it over the more the math makes sense. 0.8yd2 = body (just once, not liner and shell). Then you add up the number of layers. So 0.7 (shell) +0.7 (liner) + 3.6 (insulation) = 5osy and then you multiply that by 0.8 for body and 0.6 for arms, respectively. Is that right? haha.

Sorry I really don’t have a good sense of how big a square yard is yet, haha, so maybe this will be obvious if I laid out a tape measure and/or converted it to square meters (Canadian/metric guy over here).

What about a hood? How many yd2? Either a separate one or an attached one? Make a big difference whether it is attached or not to final weight?

Does that include an inner and outer shell? AND the insulation? Or do you need double that for the shell (2.8 square yards) and then 1.4 square yards of insulation? In your calculation it looks like you did 0.7 * 2 = 1.4 (for fabric liner and shell) and added 3.6 = 5oz/yd2. I think that would make sense if the 0.8 yd2 for body includes shell and lining (help me with the maths haha).

How warm is 3.6osy? According to this chart 3.6osy = 122 gsm, so I can look at some big brand jackets using this weight (Rab, Arc’teryx) to estimate warmth I guess?

[Jerry Adams]

some day we’ll become really exceptional and just use metric.  I believe you Canadians have mostly converted but still use some U.S. units like miles?

yeah, you got it

a hood is maybe 0.3 yd2 = 1.5 ounces.  If you sew it to your shirt that will add 0.01 oz for the extra thread (okay, I’m just being silly here, sorry :) )

I use my 3.5 osy vest down to about 32F.  With a base layer and jacket.  Below that I’ll add a down vest.

It’s warmer to have a hood instead of a hat.  Cold air will blow between the hat and shirt.  But, I don’t like to constrain rotation of my head.  I prefer a separate hat.

[Erik Norseman]

Ive been using my arcteryx nuclei fl down to around freezing comfortably with Airmesh baselayer and puffy pants.

It is 65gsm coreloft continuous which is essentially 2osy Apex.

That makes me think that 3.6 will be quite warm to 15F-20F in a hooded pullover. Does that seem accurate?

[Jerry Adams]

Of course each person is different

I would think you’d be cold at 15 to 20F with just 3.6 osy apex

But you’d have to experiment to find out

[Erik Norseman]

Good to know. Maybe 20f limit is a more reasonable experiment. I now wonder if it would be worth it to do 6oz in the torso and 3.6 in the arms? Is 6oz ridiculous or still feasible for a jacket?

[Megan W]

I made a jacket and vest in 2.5 climashield apex and argon 67.
I decided to make both rather than one jacket in 3.6 to give me more flexibility temperature wise.
I wore them together around camp on a 3 night trip when it got down below -6 C overnight. I had 200 merino and light fleece layers underneath. I was comfortable. So 3.6 would work better for your temperatures probably?

I used a pattern. Found one i liked online (Shelby Outdoors) and adjusted the size and measurements to fit over the layers i wanted to be able to wear and for the thickness of the Apex.

I did the liner (orange) and apex first. Cut them out separately then sewed the matching argon and apex pieces together before then sewing them as the garment. Once they were together as the inner layer, it was easy to see if i needed to adjust the pattern for the outer shell. I did, a bit. (The vest was easier – but i’d also had practice by then).

My jacket weighs 284 g. Jacket plus vest is 409 g. But Im only 5’1….🙂

[Megan W]

Ps my walking friends hate the colour 😆

1. 

[Terran Terran]

Who comes up with these colors? Love the color, though it would probably clash with my pufferfish gold hoody. I do prefer a vest under a light jacket. Not just more flexibility of temperature, also more flexibility of movement. When I raise my arms, the vest stays in place, while the light jacket floats over the top. I get the advantage of synthetic over down.

[Megan W]

It is supposed to be green……

[Terran Terran]

If I squint…It looks comfy. That’s all I look for. I buy everything on sale. Usually the colors that nobody else wants, then I mix them. You have a matching set. Very nice!

[Jerry Adams]

wow!  Nicely done!  I like the trim color vs the main body color.

That’s interesting how the arm pieces are sort of angled into the main body.  I just make like your vest, then sew the arms to it.  Maybe that’s more difficult…

You are narrower around the middle.  I’m always rectangular – same width at the bottom, middle, and top of the vest/jacket.  Maybe that’s a women’s clothing thing.

[Erik Norseman]

Nice work Megan!

[George H]

Megan: You used the Andji? Looks so much better than the men’s counterpart, the Nallo. Wonder if I could use it and tweak it for a guy? Probably too hard

[Paul Hatfield]

> I prefer vest

My opinion on vests is that they are okay as long as there is no wind. If there is wind, then it is really unpleasant feeling cold wind on your arms.

> the insulation around torso is more efficient because your torso skin temperature is higher.

I’m going to say no. The fact that the extremities have lower skin temperature indicates that more heat is being lost there.

[Jerry Adams]

If your total body is cold, then blood is shunted from the arms and legs to the torso.  The extremities have lower skin temperature because of where the blood flows.  The temperature of your torso and head is prioritized over your extremities.

And regardless of why, if two surfaces have the same insulation (and surface area) but surface 1 has a lower temperature, then more power will be emitted.

power = temp difference * surface area / insulation value

[Bill Budney]

Yes.

Back in the Olde Tymes, before Alpha Direct and Airmesh, I used a down vest as my active mid layer, over a wool shirt and under a wind shell.

Vests are like having giant pit zips. They dump heat quickly when desired, while keeping the core warm when appropriate. Open the shell and vest to dump heat, close them for warmth.

The combination is more versatile than an insulated jacket.

Agreed that a vest plus a light jacket is similarly more versatile than a heavier jacket.

Bonus: Vests are lighter and pack smaller; making them good backup layers when you’re not expecting serious cold.

All of this works best while moving. When just sitting around, then I want everything insulated, and more of it. A quilt makes a good in-camp poncho for that purpose.

[Megan W]

Thank you 🙂. The inner is bright orange…. useful in emergencies!  (Not why I did it, i was just bored with usual colours).

Yes, I used the Andji pattern. I wanted raglan sleeves (the way the sleeves attach to the body) because I find they let you lift your arms without the hem riding up so much. Similar to the Torrid jacket, I think. Weird that the Nallo doesn’t have them.

I think it would be very tricky changing the Andji to a men’s fit. The curves where the sides meet the front/back and where all meet the sleeves are complicated. That’s why I looked for a pattern – to get that template.

The ‘adult Fairbanks Pullover’ pattern (I got it from Ripstop By The Roll) was my second option.

When my body is warmer, it is easier to warm up my arms and hands.
The vest is also good to have on when I am warming up my quilt.
I’m in Tasmania- wet cold (and not as cold as your winters) – having this synthetic jacket is great!

Cheers

[Paul Hatfield]

Hi Jerry… If you are running a vehicle with an internal combustion engine in extreme cold weather, is it more effective to cover the radiator or the engine block?

[Jerry Adams]

I vaguely remember reading that you want to cover the radiator in very cold weather.  I forget why.

Probably routine for northerners that drive in the cold.

Somebody from Chicago said you have to remove your car battery and bring it inside so it doesn’t freeze

I would call such a place uninhabitable :)

[todd]

Megan you did a great job – and you nailed the fit.  I’m super-impressed.

[Bill Budney]

I vaguely remember reading that you want to cover the radiator in very cold weather. I forget why.

I think that’s for driving in very cold conditions with deep-ish snow. If I understand correctly, the blanket goes between grill and radiator, then over the top of the engine, held in place by the hood. Obviously you don’t want the blanket to touch hot or moving parts. Heavy canvas is probably better than anything that melts or burns easily.

It keeps ice from forming around your radiator and engine, which can make the engine cold, leading to fouled spark plugs and an undriveable/unstartable car.

Learned it from an outfitter in Northern Quebec, 100 km from the nearest blacktop road.

It’s like an “engine poncho/vest”.

[Megan W]

Hey Eric,

I forgot to say – I bought more climashield apex than I needed. Because the 2.5 has a lot of variation in thickness (Jerry said the 3.6 doesn’t? ) – and that let me select which parts of the Apex I used in the jacket and vest. (I made sure the jacket arms had good, thick apex, given my arms would miss out in the vest). I sized the jacket so it would go over the vest and help trap heat in (like Terran Terran explained).

What colours will you use?! (Most important thing to decide, of course! )

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