REI’s recent return policy change

[Matt Dirksen]

As a longtime REI member (and a former employee of many years), I recently noticed that a new “policy adjustment”  has kicked in regarding REI’s one year satisfaction guarantee.

As much I felt angry and helpless watching folks return thousands of dollars worth of stuff after years of use (back when it was a lifetime guarantee), I’m actually very concerned about this recent change, especially in regards to how it’s being implemented without any warning.

https://www.9news.com/article/money/consumer/steve-on-your-side/rei-banning-some-members-returns-and-exchanges/73-7d1b04a4-664a-4a2b-b602-a172ea5eb8b4

I’m not a lawyer, but I deal with contracts a lot in my profession, and I’m concerned REI might be rubbing up against consumer protection laws (which also vary from state to state, adding to their problems).

Anyway, even though I suspect many folks in the BPL community aren’t throwing their $$ at REI as much as they may have in the past, I still wanted to bring this to everyone’s attention.

As for myself, I’m really sad to see all this unfold in this way, for I fear it may cause more harm than good.

 

Matt

 

[Bill Budney]

The biggest problem is that REI isn’t stating the details of their policy, but claims “violations”.

I would think that a lawyer would have fun with that — at a price.

[Terran Terran]

Consumer protection laws are on the way out.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

She paid a total of $11,000 and returned $3100 worth of gear.  Well, that is a 28% of the stuff she bought she returned.  Yeah, I’ld drop her like a rock as well, or come up with a reasonable restocking plan.  My 2 cents.

[Bob Shuff]

The percentage  of members that were affected by this action is really small. They had to have returned a lot of used gear consistently. Maybe there are folks that shouldn’t have been part of this and hopefully they can appeal and regain their benefit.  Others are abusers or even frauds and should be cutoff.

I know there are a fair amount of REI haters on this forum. If you don’t like REI for one reason or another, don’t shop there. For the rest of us, retail is tough and I think we are better off with REI than without.

[Matt Dirksen]

Yeah I undestand it’s a very small percentage. But since REI has not clearly articulated how they actually define “abuse”, they are setting themselves up for big-time issues. This is all they have on their website, and it certainly leads a customer to believe that they should feel comfortable returning something:

“We stand behind everything we sell. If you are not satisfied with your purchase, you can return it for a replacement or refund—with a few exceptions—within one (1) year of the purchase date if you are an REI Co-op Member or within 90 days of your purchase if you are not a member.”

Although many folks confuse this policy with a warranty (it’s a “satisfaction guarantee“) the language is still crystal clear about it’s intention, and it doesn’t set any terms or conditions regarding abuse. As much as I hated watching people systematically “abuse” the lifetime satisfaction guarantee back when I worked there, I believe this approach will generate fear and anxiety in a lot of members who are quite sincere regarding their dissatisfaction with the stuff they bought, and will now second guess thier instinct to bring something back. At some point they will just get it on Amazon where you can pretty much return anything in the first 30 days without question.

In particular, I believe there are a few states (CA, TX & NY in particular) who have pretty strict consumer protection laws, and I’m pretty sure that the sudden and arbitrary decision of a merchant to retroactively dishonor their satisfaction guarantee to a select group of individuals could be considered a deceptive trade practice. One thing is changing the terms moving forward, but to change it on items already purchased by a consumer is deeply problematic at many levels.

[Marcus]

Until they go overboard, this is GOOD for everyone (except the return policy abusers)

Seems like more companies should limit returns to reasonable levels (but let people know an exact % that triggers a return ban up front).

This would help curb hyper consumerism and improve buyer discretion.

My only concern is REI is now heavily online. I will order a M and L, try them on in the store, and immediately return the size that didn’t fit (i float between sizes). You should not be punished for instant returns of new products.

[Dan]

OK, maybe it would have been better if they had put her on probation, but if their analysis truly uncovered a pattern of abuse, I think it’s fair to drop her as a customer.  I don’t think it’s sufficient to look at the total fraction of gear returned, one would need to see the details, e.g. is there a pattern of returning significantly used gear after a long period of time.

I can certainly believe that some small number of people are taking advantage of the policy to essentially defraud REI. Not because they are actually dissatisfied with products, but treating their purchases as free gear loans, which is not the purpose of the policy.

[DWR D]

“The company said it determined less than 0.02% of members have abused the return policy…”

Good Grief man…. .02%… big company like REI should just eat it… not a huge deal… not worth the bad PR this new policy will generate… and the particular gal in the link…. er… she still spent 7,000.00…. even if she did return 3,000 worth, I don’t see the big loss for REI… other than PR tanking…

I had a similar experience a few years ago with REI… an overzealous employee refused a return because I had bought sever pair of trail runners and return them… but… I bought them via their web site because they did not have the sizes in stock to try on and the shoe dept sales person told me to buy the several sizes of a couple of different trail runners, try them on at home, and return the ones that don’t fit… and they were refusing the return of NEW trail runners!!! Er… after a shouting match, got the manage of the store and she promptly apologized and made the refund… geez… customer and member for 40 years !!!!

[Jerry Adams]

What would they do with stuff that’s returned and in perfect condition?

Can they resell it as new?

I don’t think so.

I’m not being critical of anyone, especially if an employee told them to do it.

I’ve bought a lot of stuff at REI over the years.  I’ve returned things a few times but they were broken.

[DWR D]

If things are returned in new condition they are sold for new…

[DWR D]

Returning in ‘new’ condition means they are new… it would be crazy for them to not sell them as new… otherwise… just trying on a pair of shoes on in the store makes them not salable for new??? ridiculous

[Murali C]

By the time you leave the store, your return is back on the rack being sold as NEW (I have seen this with backpacks I have tried once or twice for a short hike and returned)…..maybe they check the quality before they do that. But, returns in good condition are sold as new. I am okay with it and am also okay with getting backpacks knowing someone may have used it once or twice.

I have always been able to return backpacks after trying them out for a 5 mile hike – HMG, Zpacks, Seek Outside, Gossamer Gear, REI etc – of course you have to make sure that you don’t dirty them or keep them on dirty floors etc. And wipe the backpack clean before returning. I don’t think you can figure out if a backpack works or not by walking around the house or with weights in REI.

Returning stuff after many months of use is abuse of policy and should not be allowed.

[DWR D]

” I don’t think you can figure out if a backpack works or not by walking around the house or with weights in REI.”

For a new backpack, before going on a hike with it, I will put weight in it and try it out on my treadmill for a couple of hours. If that seems ok, then I will go on an actual hike and take along a small piece of fabric to lay on the ground before setting the pack down on it for a break…. that way it is still in ‘new’ condition if I don’t like it and have to return… And, yes, they sell it for new…

[DWR D]

“Returning stuff after many months of use is abuse of policy and should not be allowed.”

Depends… I bought TWO kayaks for 1,400 each… REI sales guy said ‘satisfaction guaranteed… return for full refund if not satisfied for 1 year’ I said, hey, I’m headed to Baja… and won’t be back until spring… and only way to know if I’m satisfied is to try them… that means in the water and sliding them in on the sand which will scratch the bottoms up a bit. He said, not problem… if they come back scratched and dirty that’s ok… satisfaction guaranteed. So… that’s also a sales pitch… the main reason I bought them at REI. I did not return them, but I asked the manager of the store what they would have done with them had I returned them.. he said, oh, we just put the out on the lot for our annual sale and we’ll get at least the wholesale price for them…

So a store can look at it as a loss, but it’s also a gain as at least in theory more people will buy having the assurance of ‘satisfaction guaranteed’… I could have bought at a more convenient shop closer to home… but they did not have this return policy… they said, ‘you put it in the water, you bought it and no returns’… they lost that sale to REI

[Bob Shuff]

if it’s used outside it would not normally be considered new – no matter how much you baby it.  I don’t think this is so complicated or controversial. If you use something and attempt to return it as new, shame on you.  It’s not fair for the next buyer.  Be honest!

Unless you got the email you can return items to REI that you are not satisfied with, and it will be sold as used (unless it’s climbing gear or bike helmets for example). Be reasonable with your expectations when you buy it and honest if you are not satisfied and you won’t have a problem.  Maybe there’s a green vest in the wrong from time to time, but these rare instances are usually quickly resolved

If you use something and it worked but you just changed your mind, then sell it on gear swap or chalk it up to a lesson learned.  Try to use REI (or any vendor) like a free rental or unlimited annual replacements for well used gear, over and over, the you deserve to be cutoff. REI should not just eat it and expect to stay in business. Not can a cottage vendor or any other company.

[DWR D]

“If you use something and attempt to return it as new, shame on you. It’s not fair for the next buyer. ”

If it looks new and smells new, it’s new… When I return I tell them I just tried it once or twice…. it looks new, smells new… they turn around and sell it for new… crazy to call it otherwise… and wasteful

 

 

 

[DWR D]

Whether the retailer tells the next customer it has been used once or twice is up to them… but who frigin’ cares if it looks perfect, smells perfect, and can’t tell the difference?????????????????????

[bradmacmt]

I think the macro view of this story is that REI is in trouble, having lost $311M last year for a second year of huge losses.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/rei-reports-another-year-of-losses-pledges-efficiency-and-new-stores/

I agree with those that think this is a short sighted decision. The ding, dent, used rack still moves gear at or above cost.

50 Year REI member here. I use but don’t abuse the REI return policy.

Some years back Barnes & Noble put small bookstores out of business. REI did the same with small, independent shops wherever they opened (happened here in Bozeman, MT). I wonder currently whether Amazon has given both of them trouble? The world is a tough place.

 

[Murali C]

Are the losses because of return policy or is it because of competition from so many cottage manufacturers making lighter stuff? I hardly buy stuff from REI nowadays unless I need it one day before a major trip etc.

[Murali C]

Bob Shuff – I don’t think what I or DWR do is using anyone as a free rental. If you use it on a backpacking trip and return it – then it is abuse. You are trying it out and if you don’t like it – you return it. Vendor can always tell us – this doesn’t look new – we cannot take it back or there is a restocking fee etc. Which vendors do do sometimes as the backpack or item being returned looks used.

The car you buy for gobs of money doesn’t have an odometer of 0 right? It has been test driven by multiple people and you still buy it….what is the difference?

A backpack cannot fall apart after 5 or 10 miles – they last for 1000’s of miles.

If the pack is made to order – like MLD or SWD – where they don’t start making one till your order, then yes, I never return it – instead sell it on gear swap etc.

[bradmacmt]

Are the losses because of return policy or is it because of competition from so many cottage manufacturers making lighter stuff?

Good question that is above my pay grade. I can say, small cottage makers have been in existence for the entirety of REI’s existence. I’m not sure those of us that buy from small makers were ever REI’s target audience once they became so large. For instance, since I became a member in 1974, I’ve never bought a sleeping bag from REI. They never carried the more carefully crafted (and more expensive) sleeping bags I’ve always used.

But perhaps the internet has changed even casual backpackers into more niche/cottage buyers? I don’t know. Whatever is happening, REI isn’t doing well. And there is more competition today from large mainstream vendors too – think Backcountry, and a plethora of others.

I’d be curious to know what other large retailers revenues are post pandemic? I’ve got to believe everyone is down some.

[JG H]

Seems like it might be a lack of attention to an evolving market (leadership issue)… or maybe a bit of an identity crisis…. or both…

Internet makes UL philosophy and cottage gear goods more accessible, but REI still selling primarily heavier products from big volume brands (weird that they have CoOp in their name but don’t CoOp with cottage companies)

Amazon volume = lower prices and everyone has an Amazon membership

CampSaver and Backcountry offer far more frequent discounts/coupons (and often deeper) with the same return policy (or better since they’re not slapping wrists yet)

REI feels like the really love their relationship with the “Biff and Muffy” crowd with a chunk of their product line targeted toward the bougie front-country set who clog park lines for their weekend of selfies and roadside gawking (this point is a little personal, so maybe i’m more hating here than illuminating a valid point)

Does REI CoOp co-op with any cottage manufacturers? I know they carry a super-limited line of HMG packs, but I’ve seen ULA packs hanging in smaller mom and pop outfitters so why won’t REI? I would love to walk into an REI and try on a SWD Wolverine or slip into a Katabatic Palisade or pitch an X Mid Pro 2+ or buy a FCG Ocelot windscreen.

[JG H]

Oh, and this…

”… REI is behaving more like a big-box store than a specialty co-op with a tradition of strong customer service and employee expertise.”

”[In 2023] they laid off 275 experienced full-time employees and then turned right around and hired 1,300 part-timers…”

 

I don’t even waste time asking REI staff for assistance anymore because they seem to have very little product knowledge and even less experiential knowledge.

[Jerry Adams]

Chaff is back!!!

I had some boots that gave me many blisters per trip

The REI salesman said I needed a wider shoe box and recommended a boot which I have worn many trips without a blister

Usually, I am more knowledgeable about my stuff than any salesman. Lightweight backpacking is a niche, no reason for REI to worry about it from a business perspective.

I have read about how Amazon and others get a lot of returns but can not re-sell it.  Maybe they don’t have the capability to inspect and verify it as good as new.  Amazon sells a lot of “refurbished” items.  Maybe those are returns.

I think that once you drive a new car off the lot, it can no longer be sold as new

 

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