Picking up after the party

Cleaning up other people’s sh-t, no fun, but unfortunately, not uncommon. Thank you!

As to the scouts, it is good to see them out there. Once upon a time they were the predominant backpacking youth group. Today, not so much. And yes, they should have planned two independent treks. It can be a challenge with a large troop, but not impossible. My son’s troop always needed two treks, sometimes three. As leaders, we want to get them out there, but we also have the responsibility to teach them right.

Unfortunately, I have also found huge piles of human waste covered in TP in the wilderness.

And recently, I am actually finding human waste and TP at least once a week (actually, my dog is finding it) just off the trail in my local open space. People are going for hikes or trail runs, basically right in town, and then going behind a boulder, maybe 10′ from the trail.

Pack it out.

Thinking about the “spirit of the law.”

Is the spirit perhaps more so to prevent professionally guided groups from overwhelming individual hikers than it is to prevent non profit groups overcoming what they perceived as an obstacle to introducing pre adults to nature? Laws are written to have some leniency that in this case often rests with the head ranger.

Years ago, I was out by Strawberry Creek thinking I was all alone when a troop walked by. Thinking they may be the leaders of tomorrow. Perhaps they are now and carrying out the same practice.

No, if you have a 24 member boy scout troop, split into two and stay 1 mile apart.

Bad idea to teach kids that it’s okay to break rules.

The rule helps preserve the wilderness.

Then they would have written a harsher law. There is no spirit of the law making it harsher than it is. We’re injecting our own feelings into it. While I tend to believe that Robin Hood was a poacher, there’s more to the story.

There’s an iconic boulder by the cabins in Mission Creek Conservatory.  I was putting up slat roofs for shade. Their thing was bringing in inner-city kids. A bus stopped, a kid got out and proceeded to pee all over the rock. I held my breath. Should I have ruined their introduction to nature with criticism? Or should I have given him a chance to learn respect on his own making it a true lesson rather than an act of rebellion? I don’t really know. I choose the second solution. The good outweighs the bad. It has to or we would all be dead.

Nothing wrong with peeing on a rock.  Embarrassing to people because pee and poop are verboten subjects.

Not having large groups in the Wilderness is reasonable.

I don’t think that you should have to have harsh penalties to make people do things.

If a ranger finds a group bigger than 12, just explain why the rule says not to do that.  Maybe if it’s impossible to split the group up just tell them not to do it again.

Relative morality is a bad lesson to teach kids – breaking this rule isn’t as bad as that rule so don’t worry about it.  Everyone else does it so it must be okay for me to do it…

Get off soap box now, sorry : )

I think it’s a good conversation to which I have no definitive answer.

It was a big rock. Purposely placed. A spot that others used for photographs and such. Hopefully a counselor brought it up. Otherwise it’s just me yelling to get off my grass.

It would take a long term study with many participants and a bunch of guesswork for us pinpoint the damage of one oversize troop. If the spirit was to absolutely prevent damage, they’d close the trails.

BTW, I also met a troup of Girl Scouts camped near Lake Aloha on this trip. (seven girls plus 4 moms.)  As they left camp for a day hike, the girls were in high spirits, and the mom’s were struggling to keep up.  But the group waited at every trail junction to make sure everyone was accounted for. That made me smile, and I complimented them on it.

On the way back from their day hike, the last trail junction was fifty yards from their camp.  The girls didn’t wait this time.  They headed straight for the tents to change into their swimsuits and hit the lake.

The moms appeared over the course of the next fifteen minutes, gasping, wheezing, and smiling.

Praise to the wheezers for they showed up. The adults are not only there to watch the kids, they watch each other. I know with cub scouts anyway, there’s a minimum of two adults. With the chance of separation, injuries, and whatnot on trail, four adults is a better number. Two troops would be eight adults. It’s hard to get four. Lucky to get two or even one. While some rules have exceptions, there is no exception to the two adult rule.

Not knowing the backstory, I’ll give the scouts a pass. A herd of deer does more damage. As long as it isn’t consistent , nature tends to heal.

I agree Terran. And I would also note that one of the adults hiking with the Boy Scouts was a woman. I liked that–because even though those boys were hiking and acting manly, sometimes it helps to have mom along. She was clearly a key part of the adult structure of the groups.

I appreciate the story showing opposite sides of the coin. Thinking back, I may have politely mentioned it to the troop leaders. Perhaps suggesting alternatives without blame. Then invite the troop out for a day following you around so they can see what you see. Kids will almost always do the right thing if given the opportunity. Taught not by directions, but rather by examples. Much respect

I came across a group of women camped at Showers Lake on the PCT last summer, and they were about 10 feet from the lake, right near a sign that indicated they needed to be further from the lake. I did suggest they move and almost had my head bitten off. They were ferocious in their defense of breaking the rules.  I have come to believe that there are simply people who lack a conscience completely. They have no problem looking in the mirror after telling lies to coworkers, or cheating on their taxes or defying all rules no matter the consequences. They consider themselves above everyone and everything and will not change. I’m all for big penalties for these folks.

The reason there are two adults is because of previous cases of adults sexually molesting children.  Boy scouts and many other organizations.

AK Granola–as volunteers, we are asked to refrain from correcting those in violation of the rules, and instead attempt to educate them as to why the rules exist.

Thus instead of informing violators that they are in violation and asking them to move, we are asked to engage them in a discussion of why such rules exist, and the impact on the resource that such vilations cause. “If you camp close to water, you often prevent wildlife from having access to that water, it is far too easy for trash and waste to find their way into the water, and the heavily used campsites soon degrade into packed earth barren of any life–not an idea case along the shore of a lake. Plus, it takes away from the enjoyment of others who may also be camped in the area.”

It is sometimes a fine point, but usually works better than enforcement, especially since, as volunteers we have absolutely no authority whatsoever. Well, except perhaps a moral authority.  grin.

I think that’s a better way to get people to behave

I agree with Paul.  After some friendly chitchat, I find prefacing it with “The Ministry asks us to since it…” greatly opens up acceptance to the conversation by depersonalizing it.  I’m withholding my personal opinion, just sharing info.

They either won’t know the rules or LNT concepts, or do and wont care.  The first type is usually thankful.  The second type will try to get away with whatever they can but now have a bit more social pressure to weigh their decision against.

Sometimes the second type is just a little slow. Town folks that haven’t learned to chill without a little help from the store. Many don’t have the ethical knowledge to realize the results of their actions. Respect is low.

The reason there are two adults is because of previous cases of adults sexually molesting children.  Boy scouts and many other organizations.

Unfortunately yes. Good organizations can draw in some bad people. Still a good policy in general.

Although technically peeing on a rock/boulder is what they are told to do – especially if you have mountain goats around!

A boulder that was purposely placed in front of the cabins. It was like peeing at your campsite or directly on the trail. In a public area where others congregate. I guess I didn’t stress that enough.

Nice story in the Guardian about this:

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2026/aug/19/highlands-volunteering-scotland-wester-ross

Bonus note: I spent two summers as a guitarist in residence in Ullapool, a lovely spot