Not quite warm enough

[Michael Waddell]

I was out doing some winter wanderings in the PNW the other day and realized my current layering system wasn’t enough to keep me warm at rest stops at high elevation. I’m currently using:

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1. Patagonia Cap 3
2. Patagonia R1 Hoody
3. Arcteryx Nuclei AR
4. Marmot Precip

It’s been so cold lately (20 – 32F)  that I’ve been having to wear the Nuclei as my active insulation layer in combination with the R1 Hoody. These layers work extremely well together, with both hoods being able to generate extra warmth when worn together. However, when I get to rest stops or take breaks I get cold, even if I throw my Precip on to block the wind.

So my questions is, which piece of gear should I upgrade/replace/add? Should I just get a warmer insulation layer to replace the Nuclei or should I opt for a belay jacket at this point? I’m open to any suggestions. Thanks!

 

[Brad Rogers]

To clarify is that between 20*F and 32*F or is that -32*F?  That will make for a big difference.

 

If you are talking above 0*F it sounds like a ton of clothing to wear while hiking.  During those temps I generally use a mid weight base layer and windshirt though I run hot while hiking.

If it is -32*F my only experience is in an airplane and it was quite toasty in the cabin so I am of no help.  :)

[Joshua L]

Are you sweating a lot with those clothes while active, and then feel extra cold when you stop because of excess moisture?  I’m a slow hiker, but I still generate enough heat to just wear a baselayer and windshell also.  Maybe a balaclava and some gloves will make you more comfortable?

[Jerry Adams]

The Marmot Precip is just a WPB jacket without insulation.  If it doesn’t keep you warm at rest stops, use an insulated jacket instead, or add an insulated mid layer underneath it  I was just out in 30 F and wore base layer, synthetic vest, WPB jacket and was warm enough.  For 20 F, I’d use a warmer mid layer, probably down.

It matters a lot if it’s windy also.

[Andy F]

Instead of wearing the insulated jacket when active, wear a mid to heavy fleece jacket of whatever thickness keeps you warm. If you’re cold because of wind defeating your insulation, add a windshirt or breathable softshell instead of the fleece jacket. Then, your insulating jacket will be dry and warmer for rest breaks. It’s possible that you need a warmer insulating jacket too. Only some real life experiments will help you determine that.

[Michael Waddell]

Sorry, to clarify it is between 20*F and 32*F.

I realize it sounds like a lot of layers, and I generally opt for a 3 layer system consisting of my Cap 3, R1, and Precip. I was becoming chilled at the temperatures described so I threw on the Nuclei as well, and surprisingly found that I was still getting chilled when stopped.

I typically don’t hike in all four layers, but I wasn’t really exerting myself a lot because I was stopping and taking a lot of pictures. That being said, there was no excess sweat/moisture that would cause me to wet out from the inside and get cold.

I have a decent pair of gloves and use the balaclava hood on the R1 in combination with the hood on the Nuclei. The combination works really well, but I still feel chilled in all four layers at rest stops despite not being sweaty.

[Jeffs Eleven]

Hey,

 

I live in the PNW and I am cold blooded. I wear way more than everybody I go on trips with.  My tiny wife wears the basic 4 layers you mention to like 15F and stays warm.  NOT ME!!

after lots of fiddling around, I went camping the other night and the temps got down to 15F over night, but we were hanging around in the low 20’s for a few hours and I finally stayed warm!!

This is what I wore to stay warm while standing on snow from 4pm to 10pm while the temps went from 32F to 22F over that time.  I have a temp gauge I used, and there was no wind or precip.

thick wool socks

leather boots

Under Armor 2.0 grid fleece pants

OR Primalot pants (!)

OR thin shell pants 3/4 zip

 

Rho LT

Marmot Driclime

Marmot Down jacket ~5oz down, box baffle

Arcteryx Solo Hoody

MHW windstopper hat.

 

As it got colder I put on a merino neck gaiter and the Solo’s hood

 

I was toasty!  no gloves!

 

As I did camp chores (light chopping) I would get too warm and have to vent.

 

 

I suspect most people will say that they would dress like that for temps 0F and below.

 

I am done trying to be cool with light layers.  I was TOO cool… COLD.

Now I break my foot off in Cold’s ass.  (where did that saying go?  It was a good one.)

 

 

EDIT–  I unhelpfuled myself… my normal double spacing sucks now…  Sorry.

I would like to say that I put the big Marmot jacket on when it got to about 25F.  Also, the Solo is a killer jacket.  WP enough to be a shell except in hard rain, and really warm.

[Ryan Bressler]

My suggestion would be to get an warmer, breathable active layer like a fleece or a nanoair or alpha poofy then use the Nuclei as your booster layer at stops while not trapping as much moisture in your inner layers. This layer could be a vest or pullover + hat to keep it light and relatively cheap.

Many do prefer a warmer booster layer  but that is a much more expensive proposition.

[Michael Waddell]

My suggestion would be to get an warmer, breathable active layer like a fleece or a nanoair or alpha poofy then use the Nuclei as your booster layer at stops while not trapping as much moisture in your inner layers.

I would like a little clarification on this. I currently have an R1, and I use it as an active midlayer. It keeps me at an ideal temperature during shoulder season, but isn’t warm enough (as a midlayer) for the winter temperatures I mentioned earlier.

Are you suggesting I get an even warmer active midlayer to use during winter? Like an R2 or a Polartec Alpha jacket? I haven’t wore or know of many Polartec Alpha jackets or what warmth they’re able to provide, but I see a lot of people comparing it to fleece in terms of warmth and breathability.

[Steve K]

Sweat is the enemy.

The first thing to figure out is if you are sweating while moving. If you are sweating while moving, and many people will at 20-30ºF with your kind of set-up, then the real problem is not that your layers aren’t warm enough, it’s that they are getting wet or damp.

To stay warm in cold temperatures, you have to approach this two-fold: You need a way to stay very warm when you’re inactive and a way to stay cool when you are moving.

Staying warm when you’re inactive is relatively simple. Get a heavy jacket. I use the Patagonia DAS Parka, which doesn’t compress much but is the only puffy I usually carry any time weather dips below freezing. Doubling up on standard spring/fall-weight jackets like the Nuclei suffice too but add the hassle of dealing with multiple layers.

Staying comfortably cool when you’re active is harder. You want just a touch of warmth, enough to keep you from feeling cold, but not enough warmth that you sweat. Many here including myself have found that a fairly light fleece like the R1 paired with a wind shell (Houdini, Squamish, DriClime, Ferrosi) creates a comfortable personal climate. The wind shell is key. Without it, you have to use thicker insulation to keep comfortable because the wind cuts through and robs you of warmth. At the same time, the wind shell should breathe better than a hard shell so you don’t get too sweaty.

You also didn’t talk about pants. Most people will barely notice their legs being cold but clothing your legs correctly will add a lot of warmth. I like to use light softshell pants and long underwear of varying thicknesses in sub-freezing temperatures. Softshell pants are good because they breathe and wick but resist outside moisture, stretch, and are relatively durable.

It’s easy to test out the “action suit + belay jacket” style of clothing layering- try hiking with just the R1 and Precip together, with the Nuclei as your inactive layer. You may find yourself more comfortable and less cold already.

[Michael Waddell]

try hiking with just the R1 and Precip together, with the Nuclei as your inactive layer.

This is typically what I do. I’m noticing that I’m too cold in just my R1 and Precip at the temperatures described. This leads me to believe I need something more substantial than the R1 for those temperatures.

You also didn’t talk about pants.

For pants I typically use 100 or 200 weight long underwear with Prana Zion Stretch pants, and then have REI Crestrail hardshell pants to go over it if necessary.

[Brett Peugh]

I think i just about have my system dialed in.  I am using an OR long sleeve neck zip Echo in white.  Great by itself for temps up to about 85F.  I just wish it had a hood.  Next I add an Patagonia R2 and an OR balaclava and fleece mitts on that for temps down to about freezing with mist or no wind.  I was just walking around in this for an hour during lunch with temps around 38F, a light mist and a wind at about 8 mph with no problems.  If the rain or wind gets to be a bit more I find the my Beyond M4 helps me to push it down to about 30F or lower.  At this point just about any hooded down jacket will help you at the stops.

[Earl Gilbert]

I tend to agree that you are sweating and wetting your insulating layers. I hiked this past weekend wearing a long sleeve 150 weight Icebreaker wool shirt and cap 4 hoody, with softshell pants. The temps were in the 20’s, no to very little wind, but cloudy. I put on a windstopper hooded fleece jacket when i stopped for more than a few minutes while going up hill, and kept it on during the descent, but unzipped. I was comfortable the entire time.

 

When its cold, being wet/damp will kill you. Its ok to be cool when hiking in the Winter.

[Ryan Bressler]

I would like a little clarification on this. I currently have an R1, and I use it as an active midlayer. It keeps me at an ideal temperature during shoulder season, but isn’t warm enough (as a midlayer) for the winter temperatures I mentioned earlier.

Are you suggesting I get an even warmer active midlayer to use during winter? Like an R2 or a Polartec Alpha jacket? I haven’t wore or know of many Polartec Alpha jackets or what warmth they’re able to provide, but I see a lot of people comparing it to fleece in terms of warmth and breathability.

Yes, I think this will give you the most versatility for the least additional cost. You’ll be able to use the new layer in place of the r1 or over it for really cold conditions or stop and go activity and it will breath much better then the Nuclei. Then you can throw the (much less breathable) Nuclei on over that to trap heat and block wind at longer rest stops.

I’m in western Montana but My typical winter layering atm is something like:

Merino wool t-shirt

Cap 4 hoody. This is a great base layer in itself and i mostly just wear the t-shirt to have something to put an avi beacon harness over.

Westcomb Tango (alpha layer). Basically an insulated layer and a soft shell combined in a light package.

Some sort of shell. In cold dry conditions i may not use another shell other then the tango or only a light wind shirt like a houdini. Also sometimes the tango goes over the shell, sometimes the shell over the tango.

Puffy coat for rest stops. I have a few in various warmths and states of disrepair I’ll choose based on how cold and windy it is going to be but this will be something like a nano puff, down sweater or full on parka.

I really love the tango for stop and go hiking or for active hiking in really cold conditions…it has a much larger temperature range then a traditional puffy.

 

 

[Anonymous]

Very much agree with Steven.  I would also add that if you wear a Cap 4 type baselayer or fishnet baselayer, you won’t feel as chilled when you have sweated.

For people that don’t like to be cold, it can be hard for them to stay cool enough to not sweat much–i noticed this when hiking with two inexperienced female’s recently. I was hiking with a Cap 4 and windjacket, and they were all layered up, one having a merino baselayer, a thin merino sweater, a windjacket and a down puffy on top of that.  It was only 36 or so. I suggested not wearing the down puffy, and she eventually took it off after a few uphills, but i still couldn’t believe she was wearing both Merino layers and a windjacket, when i even took off the windjacket most of the time.  I like to hike cool so i don’t sweat much (back pretty much always does though), but i don’t mind the cold so much.

Wet fabric with a larger surface area, tends to be quite conductive and thus cold.  Cap 4 and fishnet baselayers have more air space against the skin than direct, wet fabric. Not a large space, but it makes a difference to have it mostly air, vs mostly wet fabric.

Want some truly awesome cold weather layering. Wear a tighter Cap 4 type baselayer and a larger, looser one over that, with a windshirt.  That, or a combo with a Fishnet and Cap 4 is awesome as providing plenty of active warmth in combo with a windjacket, but also very efficient at dumping heat when you need to.

If i was hiking in some truly cold temps, near 0 F* and below, i would do the above, and then put a regular grid fleece vest with most of the back cut off over that.

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