New Nemo Tensor Sleeping Pad

well… right off the bat, the fact that they will not tell you the R-value is worrisome.  A temperature rating is not an objective measurement.  It is purely marketing mumbo jumbo.  I think it more likely you can push the insulated pad to 20-25°F with a GG 1/8″ pad.

yes, but like stated here too, an R-rating is also a point of discussion e as there’s no standard test and the air-temperature in the test influences the result. E.g. the R-value of the NeoAir Xtherm is the well known 5,7, but CD test all their pads at 39°F. Not also at e.g. 10°F.

Their is a document from Nemo stating that precisely this lack of a standard test is the reason why they don’t give R-values and think a temperature rating is better.

I bought one last week and did a test sleep on the back porch. I bought the insulated one, and it was only 35, but I found it toasty and confortable with my 20 degree enlightened equipment quilt. There is a very slight crinkle noise, but much much quieter than the neoair. I also like the full rectangular shape, though those looking to cut weight may want to hunt down the mummy version. The uninsulated tensor does still have the heat-reflective layer, so is warmer than typical air-only pads. I think with a GG pad you could easily sleep in the low 30s. Much below that I think really depends on the person.

R values are made-up numbers anyway, and the method of measuring varies between manufacturers. While useful for relative warmth within a brand, comparing across brands is an iffy prospect. Temp ranges are fine, and no reason to discount a perfectly good mattress.

the old BPL SOTM test years ago measured the R value of various pads and confirmed the old neo airs R-value

heres a question … if a pad is at 40F or 10F is there a different R value? … does it insulate significantly less?

usually when marketing schmucks dont want to give out actual numbers, they dont want folks to make comparisons …. cant claim your product is “the best” or “unique” if someone points out it has quite a bit of lower R-value

westcomb once told me “we dont give out the amount of down fill in our jackets because then youll run to MEC and make a comparison”

as for manufacturers “temp ratings” … weve all seen how well such bullshiet worked before em eurobums stepped in and forced everyone to use their en-rating with their commie dictatorship powers

;)

Do these pads use a push-then-twist valve?

I have a Nemo Zor. Very comfortable self-inflating pad. It’s also light, warm, and packs small. But the valve is one where you push it in, then twist it to close it. After only 25-30 nights, the valve had issues closing properly. Nemo sent me a replacement valve for free. It was easy to replace at home – would have been a difficult field repair though.

yes… like any test, you can game the test, but R-value has an objective meaning.  Reality can only vary so much from the test.  It is a defined quantity unlike a temperature rating.  If a pad effectively shuts down natural convection and material properties don’t significantly change with temperature, then test temperature should have a minor effect on the R-value.

No matter what Nemo says the reason for not reporting R-value it is pretty clearly a marketing technique designed to take away meaningful information from their customers.

This does look like a great pad.  Does it have the additional larger flat valves for deflation?

I’m not sure why you so object to them not publishing r values. If I take it out on a cold night and am comfortable and warm, I don’t really give a hoot that I don’t know the exact r values. Sleeping bags are rated in terms of temperature. Why should sleeping pads be so different?

I am not sure what you mean by them “gaming” customers. If anything, I believe it would hurt their business as there are many out there who are numbers-obsessed. The temperature rating puts it in a range comparable to the synmat 7 ul or neoair xlite. That is really the only information that I personally need. But to each their own.

The valve is the one thing I am not crazy about. It is the same old push/pull to lock. I use a big agnes dry bag for inflation, so that goes pretty quickly, but deflation is painfully slow. Ah well, no such thing as a perfect pad I reckon.

who needs to know the amount or quality of the down fill in a sleeping bag or jacket

as long as one gives a temp rating thats all that matters …

BTW … sleeping bag temp ratings by manufacturers have proven to be a pack of LIES in the past … its not till them euro bums came up with their en-rating scheme that the temp ratings have come more in line with actual real world usage

and who here would buy a quality down sleeping bag without knowing the fill power or fill weight … raise your BPL hands?

;)

There are also problems with comparing r values across the board from brand to brand. I slept on a sea to summit ultralight insulated pad, which has the same r value as the xlite, but I found it colder. There are many other factors aside from r value. Does the insulation go all the way to the edges? Also, the surface material affects how cold or warm the pad feels. R value is a useful tool sometimes, but it is far from the only thing we should be paying attention to.

Well

1. first: as shown, a pad has not a single R-value but a range of values.
2. and second: yes the R-value depends on the temperature gradient and thus varies.

Yes, the R-value is an easy indication and was meant to be so when developed. But it was and is misused fot measuring things it was never meant to such as e.g. sleeping pads. And clear ? Well, consider en13537 for sleeping bags. It states the use of a pad with an R of 0,85. Low everybody thinks, wright ? Well, you should know it’s expressed as the SI-unit K·m²/W and converted to the Imperial Unit h·ft²·°F/Btu, it’s about 5. The first thing here that many could notice: “the R-value has a unit and not just one but two ?”.

oh come on the way the R value is expressed in sleeping pads in the US is pretty “standard” …

if you ever need to find out the yankee r-value of those eurobum SI mat … just times it by 5.7

this is NOT a problem with measuring R value … but rather having a case of feet vs meters

yr measuring the same thing

R-value isnt EVERYTHING … but at the end of the day you buy a mat largely because of its insulating properties 

full stop …

temp ratings are shiet unless they give a PROPER rating for both women and men … as its not in dispute that women on average sleep colder than men

which is why thermarest makes women specific neoair xlites with a HIGHER r-value

;)

Well no company gives separate r values for men and women. So then it is all shite (According to what you just said). At the end of the day, the tensor insulated me well, has a nice low weight, and is quieter than the xlite, is a full 20 inches in width, and has a nice sleeping surface. For me, I am not particularly bothered by not having a specific r value. If you want to make a case for it, talk to the company directly. Maybe you’ll convince them. The spec sheet will only tell you so much. Then real world use comes into play and lets you know whether you have made a sound decision. The tensor is insulated. Full stop. You can tell cause it’s warm to sleep on. I don’t need an r value to tell me that.

And like I pointed out above in sleeping on a pad with an identical r value to an xlite, I found the experience colder. Despite having the same r value!!! Omg how can that be???

It ain’t just r value.

“heres a question … if a pad is at 40F or 10F is there a different R value? … does it insulate significantly less?”

Different R value?: Definitely, Yes.

Significantly different? – Meh…  5%, 10%,but it very much depends on the type of insulation, and in particular, the ground vs. air temp. If the air is 40d but your in a tent on 6″ of wet snow, I’d bet the underside of that pad will be both cold and wet from condensation.

“yes… like any test, you can game the test, but R-value has an objective meaning.  Reality can only vary so much from the test.  It is a defined quantity unlike a temperature rating.”

Given the recent realizations that rigid building insulation materials express different R values at varying temperatures, I would most certainly assume that the air mattresses we depend on when trying to stay warm in the outdoors would express an even greater variance, not just due to temperature variation, but also due to RH and even air pressure.

http://buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/info-502-temperature-dependent-r-value

(Temperature aside, the RH inside a tent or bivy can change SIGNIFICANTLY during the night, based on a whole lot of variables.)

I am not aware if anyone has actually done any rigorous testing of air mattresses in cold/humid weather (to validate R value), but I’d love to know if someone has.

All this makes me wonder if the FTC might one day intervene with sleeping pad manufacturer’s use of R value due to the industry’s lack of any consistent testing methods, no third party verification, or questionable marketing practices. While certainly not rocket science, properly measuring R-value is still a science, and ain’t as simple as listing the weight of a product.

(of course, look at how many listed weights there are for tents these days…)

Oh come on there caledonia

you are arguing about providing LESS information !!!

of course no manufacturer lists different R value for men and women

if you understood it, you would realize that the R value doesnt care if yr a man, women or dog … Its not a temp rating that depends on ur physiology

but rather the THERMAL RESISTANCE of an item

the sleeping bag industry has went through all these shenanigans before and folks have made the exact same arguments

until there is a proper temp rating system that is adopted accross the industry, the R value is as good as youll get

what is needed is more BPL SOTM tests where they measured the R values to keep manufacturers honest in lieu of legislated standards

BPL generally found that thermarest were fairly honest and conservative in their ratings … Of course with air pads it depeds on the inflation, but the original neo air met or exceeded its specs even when not absolutely fully inflated

we all know that the amount of down is not the ONLY determiner of bag/quilt warmth, but it is the largest factor

who here would make excuses for manufacturers who suddenly decided not to tell you the fill power or weight of down in yr bags?

;)

Er, you were the one saying there should be r values for both men and women. I was just restating that. R value is an imperfect tool. So if nemo decided not to play the same game, that’s their business. I don’t completely ignore r values, and I’m not saying no one should use them. I’m just saying they should be taken with a grain of salt. I just don’t ignore products because they don’t have them. I’m not forcing you to buy any of their products. I just like having a broader range of options. I like to live dangerously like that!

No caledonia

what i said is that there should be TEMP RATINGS for men and women

a sleeping bag for example can be a 30F bag for men and 40F bag for women yet still have the same THERMAL RESISTANCE 

the tog, r-value or clo (they all measure thr same thing) doesnt give a damn who is using it

a R 3.2 pad is just that for man woman or dog …

Now WHAT TEMP a man or woman can “feel warm” with that 3.2R is what can vary

which is why Temp ratings are flawed unless they take this into account

theres a reason why the en-ratings have an lower limit AND a comfort limit for their temps

;)

Last word is all yours man. I like my sleeping pad. We’re going to hike off into the sunset together.

Thanks for all the responses everyone! I realized not having an R value is definitely a negative for these pads and comparing them. Going back to one of my original questions, does anyone know how much a 1/8th ccf pad would extend the comfort of any given pad (e.g. 3 deg? 5 deg? 10 deg?, etc). I realize this will vary by person, but in your general experience, what have you found?

Im currently thinking of getting the uninsulated tensor and pairing it with a 1/8th pad to get it truly comfortable around 30 and maybe a little below, and then maybe use a 1/4 ccf or z lite or something if I were expecting low 20s.

It is bizarre that people would give Nemo a pass on this obvious marketing shenanigans because they like their pad.  Marketing crap like this works when the public is uninformed.  Which is precisely what Nemo is doing.  The internet can be used to inform consumers when companies do stuff like this.  It is a great way to keep companies honest; and that is what I am trying to do.  The Nemo pad might be great but it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t quantify the characteristics of their pad objectively.  From position, Nemo should just say this a light, warm pad.  If they don’t need to quantify how warm the pad is, why should they quantify how heavy the pad.  You know… the weight of backpacking equipment is often inaccurate anyway.

Micheal ….

since nemo doesnt give R values we really dont know

a MEC evazote yellow 1/8″ pad gives a ~0.7 R value

now if u knew the nemo R value (if accurate) you could simply add up the R values and then cross reference on a table to see what an average man might be fine with it to temp wise

of course theres other variables but it gives u a general idea

Unfortunately by not listing R values we have no real idea …

;)

Op

I think that the 1/8 ccf pad over the regular tensor would probably be fine to 30 if you are a reasonably warm sleeper. If we hazard a guess that the r value might be somewhere around 1.5-2, and the foam has a value of 0.75, you’re looking at a cumulative r of roughly 2-2.5. Which should be enough for a warm sleeper to get to 30. In my opinion.

Caledonia

It seems Nemo is using lighter fabrics than the offerings from Cascade. Not necessarily a bad thing but can you give an opinion on how you think the pads will compare in longevity. Also something to consider is Cascade Designs excellent warranty and CS if folks are considering between the two. Have fun with the new gear.

jimmyb

Interesting to note that on the web page Nemo has some product check boxes there (without corresponding products, yet) for ‘Winter’ and ‘Mountaineering’ and a couple others… ‘Hunt-Fish’ in Bud Lite-resistant camo?

Since the R values are general estimates anyway, it doesn’t bother me in the least that Nemo uses a temp range instead. A cold sleeper? Use the higher number as your low limit.

Maybe retailers and average consumers will like the temp ratings better than the sophisticated outdoor cognoscenti at BPL. Easier to convey a temp range to a customer than to give them an R value and then engage in a long-winded explanation about what that means and what they can expect.

For R-value testing, do they use a partially deflated air mat with a warm body on top and snow underneath, and an ambient temp of 5°F?

Good point about the warranty, which is built into the price structure. But I used it once (quite a few years ago!) and CD was super cool to deal with, even then. I hope that Nemo has or will adopt the same policy.

For Michael, for 20°F I’d err on the side of having a little more CCF on top, say 1/4″ or 3/8″. I have used a GG 1/8″ a few times with temperatures a little above and below that, combined with a NeoAir Trekker (R=3.0, FWIW, lol, etc), and found it marginal. Also, it is so thin that it gets rather wadded up beneath me, but then I’m quite the tossy-turny sleeper.