Need some help on deciding my layering system

[Santi U]

Hi all,

I am planning to hike on the Pyrenees next July. The idea is to start in Hendaye and follow the HRP direction east. I have one month and I will try to arrive to Puigcerdá, in the catalan Pyrenees. I am going solo, planning to sleep in my tent the most of the days and also will carry my stove and meals.

My base weight will be around 6,5 kgs, so I am not going as UL as I would like, but that’s much lesser weight than two years ago, when I hiked part of that trail.

As I am already done with all my gear list, I have some doubts with my layering. I don’t expect to have sub zero temps, considering it is going to be summer, but you never know.

I am taking a merino long sleeve, Patagonia Nano Air jacket, a Montane windshell and a Montbell versatile rain jacket. These are all items I already have. I can fit them all as layers, but I don’t know if it will be enough, considering that I am going to be most of the time in alpine terrain.

I was doubting if I need some kind of down jacket (which I don’t have) that maybe is going to be warmer, instead of the Nano Air.

Or maybe I need to buy a light goretex jacket, keep the Patagonia and then forget bringing on the rain and wind jackets..?

Really confused guys, and will appreciate your thoughts ;)

Thanks in advance! Cheers

Santi

[Richard Nisley]

Santi,

Was is the average high/low temps rain amount for the area and period?

[Santi U]

Hi Richard,

I will check once the departing date will be closer, but normally I expect around 0º Celsius at night ( not much lower than that I hope) and warm during daylight. My sleeping bag is a Kelty SB20 Dri Down.

[Santi U]

Sorry Richard, regarding the rain, normally it will be sunny during mornings and storms in the afternoons. That is the normal situation

[Ian]

Santi,

For me, what you’ve listed would be more than enough down to freezing and a bit below.  I can’t hike with much more than a base layer down to  (edit) +20*f, presuming I’m dry and the wind isn’t blowing.  You have the nano air to throw on during breaks or in camp, and a rain jacket to throw on over that that would add even more warmth.

I’d personally swap the nano air for a 3-4oz fill weight down jacket, but that’s just my personal preference.

But, I tend to run warm and YMMV.

 

[Richard Nisley]

Santi,

Your Nano Air Hoody is the only marginal element of your layering system. It is design optionized for below 0C active wear and not camp chores at 0C. Its camp chores thermo-neutral temp is only 11.7 C. The hoody that would be ideally matched to this type of trip would have 100 grams (~3.5 oz) of 800 down.

[Justin Baker]

” I can’t hike with much more than a base layer down to -20*f ”

Are you a polar bear or something???

[Ian]

“I can’t hike with much more than a base layer down to -20*f ”

Are you a polar bear or something???”

JEEPERS CREEPERS!!!!  Sorry I goofed.

I can’t hike with much more than a base layer down to 20*f.  Ignore the “-”

At -20*f I’d definitely have a fleece on plus some sort of shell while moving, and a much more robust down jacket for in camp/stops.  I can only think of a few times when temps got down to the -20*fs at Ft. Drum, but anything under 0*f is just damn cold.  I’ll edit my original response.

 

[Santi U]

My idea with the Nano Air was to use it instead of a fleece. Its breathability is great and alows me to hike in the early mornings, and maybe then bring a down jacket to pair with it? Something like the Montbell ex light anorak to put it over in case I need everything on me? I know both are insulated jackets and don’t know if they can work together …

if I swap the Nano air for a down jacket, do you guys think its enough without a fleece?

 

 

[Richard Nisley]

Santi,

Your suggested insulation augmentation garment would solve the problem as would a down vest with -2 oz. of 800 fill.

[Santi U]

Richard,

I think a down vest is a great idea so I can combine everything and keep the overall weight down.

I am going to search some vests.

Thanks for your help!

[Colin M]

The nano is the “weak link” of your setup.

For nearly all conditions above -5c I carry the same kit: long sleeve merino base layer, UL puffy down jacket (Montbell superior hooded), a RAB rain jacket that weights about 260g and gloves.

Mixing and matching those covers all situations:
1. sunny and hot: base layer for sun protection
2. rain hiking: base + rain jacket
3. snow: all three
4. sitting in camp:  base and the down jacket.
5. Early morning setup in the cold: all 3
6. Hiking when it’s 5c: base and rain jacket plus gloves

I haven’t found any situation above -5c that this setup combined with running shorts, Montbell rain pants and silk long johns didn’t work for. Key is that when you are moving you are warm so keep moving. When you stop, put on more layers very quickly before you get cold.

[Santi U]

Hi Colin,

That’s great info and brings me more light! Many thanks!

I am already searching for a light down jacket because I agree that I will need it for camp, and I can use it as well as a complementary layer for sleeping,

If I consider leaving at home the Nano, which weights around 350grs., that will be a great weight saving. Anyway, I also doubt on keeping the Nano so I can use it during activity and, that way, the down jacket will be stored dry with the sleeping bag and only for camp use. The Nano will be always better than the down in terms of breathability while moving. And an old fleece that I have is way heavier than the Nano air. I need to think if its worth the extra weight.

Thanks guys!

 

[Colin M]

Glad it helps! Agreed on using the down jacket for sleeping, it really helps on cold nights.

The only time I ever consider bringing a fleece is if I know it will not be above 10c and will be raining for 2+ days. Even then I only bring a 150g “expedition weight” base layer.

 

[Jerry Adams]

That’s pretty much the same as me Colin

One difference is I have a thin synthetic vest and a thin down vest.

If it’s wet I’ll wear the synthetic.  If it’s really cold (somewhere below freezing)  I’ll add the down vest.

Down loses it’s loft when wet, but is much warmer for the weight.  Thin synthetic is like a survival item if I encounter wet conditions.

[Paul S.]

I always bring a fleece mid layer.  I’ve been in situations on the move that I would swear out my down jacket but would be too cold with just a wind or rain shell.

I have considered an active-biased layering system with my Nano Air and a lighter down layer for stops/camp and it weighs the same as my fleece + heavier down parka.  I’m sure it won’t be quite as warm but it seems to me that it might be a better setup. E.G. if you really need more warmth at camp/stops you can just use your quilt but if you need more warmth on the move you risk wetting out your down and then you’re in a bad spot.

[Colin M]

Jerry, I kind of like the idea of a super light fleece vest but wonder if it would be any lighter than a 4.5oz UL full fleece and be as warm? I used to sometimes carry a 15-denier cycling vest (similar to the Patagonia Houdini vest) that’s just about 2oz. Not very warm but completely cuts wind for my core so combined with a LS merino base works well. Ended up substituting the fleece for those kinds of occasions as it’s warmer and works better under my rain jacket for the nasty days.

Paul, there’s definitely a personal comfort level at play. I did 3 days straight of 3-7c and raining on the Wonderland last September doing 25 mile days and never wore more than running shorts, merino LS top and my RAB UL rain jacket. Gloves were a must at points but even with high winds and a bit of sleet I was fine as long as I was moving and put on warmer clothing as soon as I got to camp. And no, I was not dry for those 3 days! Hiking style, fitness level and personal comfort are all considerations that we all have to figure out for ourselves.  However, I often see people overestimate how much to wear when hiking as cutting wind is the most important, even more so than staying dry. Backcountry skiing even in -10c we still only wear a base and a light fleece with our pants unzipped to prevent sweating then toss on a shell for the descent.

[Bob Shuff]

The responses make me think I’m over doing it now. I typically have a short sleeve nylon or polyester shirt for hiking, a rain shell for weather, and a Montbell Ex Lite Anorak for camp.  I find synthetic base layers better for hiking because they seem to dry faster than Merino.

If it’s warm I bring, and usually wear, a wind/bug shirt – RailRiders Journeyman shirt with Insect Shield.

If it’s a little cooler I will replace the bug shirt with an R1 fleece hoody or a Patagonia Level 3A (Alpha) jacket.  I think this is sort of like the nano puff?  Supposedly this one is good for hiking, but I found it has to be pretty cool.  It makes a great jacket for when you stop.

I didn’t do a winter trip, but the plan was to take both R1 fleece and Level 3A jackets if necessary.  In fact I would probably replace the short sleeve base layer with the R1 if I was expecting cold all day.

I’m not sure the OP would need all of the above.  The bug shirt is a great item.  I also have a merino base layer, but try to save that for dry/clean sleeping clothes.  If I were planning this from scratch, I might replace the Anorak and my current sleeping quilt with one of Jack’s R Better Sierra quilts, that can be worn like a serape in camp for warmth.  It’s definitely a back country item – not something you would want to put on if you were in town for a night.

[Colin M]

Bob, my system is almost the same but I can’t do poly fabrics on my skin as I can’t handle the stink I create!

[Jerry Adams]

A synthetic vest (or jacket) is lighter for the same warmth as fleece.  My 2.5 oz/yd2 Apex vest weighs 4.5 ounces.  I have an REI fleece vest (200 weight?) that weighs 11 ounces and is less warm.  I wear it all the time at home.

[jscott]

I find that Merino is somewhat heavy. Leaving it behind in favor of a polyester layer (or nothing) I then have extra ounces to spend. I got a warmer down jacket instead. So for less weight my kit is now warmer overall sans the Merino. Oh and I also found that Merino dries slowly.
For cold mornings I have my nylon long sleeve sun shirt and the little poly layer that I sleep in. I warm up in 20 minutes usually. I wear the down when making breakfast etc.

But if things were going to be wet, I’d take an R1 or something similar as well.

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