moving from sleeping bag to quilt

[Patty D]

Hello Folks–I am trying to drop my base weight and thinking about moving from my Western Mountaineering Versalite 10 degree, 850 fill bag (30oz) to a quilt.  Last year on the firs 2000 miles of the PCT I used my Versalite with a Thermarest Z-Lite Sol (foam pad) and Thermarest Womens NeoAir but ended up ditching the NeoAir after the first several weeks due to the ease of setup (no inflate/deflate) and better adaption to cowboy camping.  I am looking at the Katabatic Sawatch 15 degree, 5’6″, 900fp HyperDRY goose down at 22.6oz for $490 or the Enlightened Equipment 950 down, 0 degree, short length, slim width at 19.48oz for $390 as I feel they are each probably closely comparable to the Versatile and with each other assuming it is true that WM is highly temp rating accurate, Katabatic is closely accurate (in comparsison to WM) and EE is the least accurate of the three companies.  So, #1, did I do a fair comparison and should I be happy with either quilt?  #2 can I sleep with a quilt and effectively cinch it down to a Z-lite (I realize colder conditions will warrant a higher R-value) pad.  #3 I am inconsistent with my heat regulation as I sleep and I am not sure if it is actual cold sensitivity or the the sweat on my skin from being too warm that cools me down too much.  In any event, I do not want to be cold.  I do not anticipate sleeping in conditions below 15 degrees.  #4 Do you think these quilt choices will be equal to the warmth of a Versalite? I am a toss and turn sleeper, switching from a back sleeper to each side position.

I am honestly leaning towards the EE for the weight savings which I seem to be able to make the best of with the specific sizing options available for my body.  Will I find the cinching system to be effective enough?

Thoughts?

Patty

 

[James Marco]

Patty, personally, I don’t see any benefit to a quilt over a bag at 20-25F let alone any colder. You need to take more weight in the form of ground pads, head insulation with a quilt. A bag has both built in. A typical EE quilt (Long/Wide Revalation 20) was enough for me with a hat (like a balaclava) and a second CCF pad (I use this as a frame on my pack so it is actually my main pad in summer.) Adding up the weight, I get about a half pound more weight than a 21oz quilt. I could drop the hat and NeoAir, IFF it was about 32F at night. So, the numbers don’t add up to any real weight savings over a WM Ultralight. At 20F, both need a bit of an assist. Both weigh about the same, within an ounce.)

Anyway, to your questions.
1) I believe you are underrating the EE quilts. I do not believe they are that far off, maybe by about 5F. Good enough…
2) Cinching to a Zlite is easy enough. It helps to trim the lower corners off.
3) Well, you could be over insulated at the start of a night. I think you will likely adjust your position to be comfortable while you sleep, though. Too hot, or, too cold will cause most adults to adjust. The problem comes in when there is no “adjustment” left.
4) Tossing and turning is, perhaps, the worst possible scenario for using a quilt. Every shift with many quilts lets in a draft. IFF you are, then get one size up in length and width than you think you need.

[John Klinepeter]

My sleeping bag history has been similar to what you are proposing.  I switched from a WM Ultralite to a Katabatic Sawatch about 8 or 9 years (more?) ago when the Sawatch was first offered.  IMO the Sawatch is noticeably warmer than the Ultralite; in fact it is so warm that I have rarely used it for packing into the Wind River Mtns. through mid September, its original intended use, or in Glacier Nat’l. Park during the same time period.  I have since purchased two EE quilts and have settled on the 30 degree Enigma quilt for most purposes. The Enigma is supplemented with a down vest and other clothing to reach the mid to low 20’s F.   My Sawatch is normal width (they did not offer width selection when I bought mine if I remember correctly) and I do not have any problems keeping warm when I use the cord system.  My EE quilt is a wide version and I am spoiled by the extra width, would probably buy a wide version again if the situation arises.  The Sawatch + cords + head covering weigh about 26 ounces.  The Ultralight weighs about 31 ounces.  The weight saving is minimal.  I have not found it necessary to use the EE cords with the wide quilt; YMMV depending on your sleeping style.  Head rotation ease, breathing freedom and face comfort, not so much weight saving, are where it’s at for me when comparing quilt to bag usage.

[Thomas E]

4) Tossing and turning is, perhaps, the worst possible scenario for using a quilt. Every shift with many quilts lets in a draft. IFF you are, then get one size up in length and width than you think you need.

The obligatory YMMV, but my experience is quite the opposite. I have been using a quilt for 3-season hiking about 1-2 years now and it makes tossing and turning a whole lot easier than when I was using a sleeping bag. I always use the strap system when in the lower ends of my comfort rating and now the quilt stays on top of me whatever I do with my body beneath. I use a balaclava on my head, which keeps my face from suddenly being inside my head end of the sleeping bag. To me, using a quilt has been much more comfortable than a sleeping bag. Turning inside a sleeping bag is not comfortable and I’ve never succeeded having the sleeping bag move perfectly with my body when turning (I switch from sleeping on stomach, on my side and on my back throughout the night).

Winter camping is a whole other story.

[Ben Kilbourne]

I have some observations I guess. I have a Versalite and an Alsek. The quilt is way more comfortable. The versalite is warmer so maybe the Sawatch would do the trick. Main differences I can see between Katabatic and EE: attachment system seems to be superior on Katabatic and it has a draft collar. Those are the main reasons I chose it. I’m not sure I can address the way in which weight differences play into the equation. Oh and I really like to pair that zpacks goose hood with my Katabatic. 1.3oz and totally warm enough.

[Rachel P]

I have a 20 degree Revelation (short/regular) with overfill added. I think your 0 degree EE is probably a good temp rating, or maybe a 10 with overfill. Although I bought my bag back in 2014 and I think now there might be more standard overfill added then they did back then.

I haven’t ever been able to sleep to 20 in my Revelation unless I have another Revelation layered on top! I find I tend to sleep true to the comfort limits for a sleeping bag or slightly lower (for example I have slept to 17 in a Sierra Designs women’s bag comfort rated to 20.)

I also wish I had gone with a wide quilt for those colder nights to really wrap around me. And a longer length so there is more room for stuff in the footbox and for my dog at my feet. I have a Short/Regular (I’m 5’6″) but toss and turn, and sleep on my side. It can be hard to avoid drafts even when using the strap system — mostly I find I get drafts around my hips if the quilt twists. Part of it is my own fault as I tend to just clip the buckles directly together there. Using the pad strap would help a lot (last time I went out I forgot the strap, doh).

[J R]

it makes tossing and turning a whole lot easier than when I was using a sleeping bag. I always use the strap system when in the lower ends of my comfort rating and now the quilt stays on top of me whatever I do with my body beneath.

My experience as well. The way I like to think of it is: I sleep *in* a sleeping bag but *under* a quilt. It’s more like sleeping under a blanket in a bed.

[David Thomas]

While moving under a quilt works better for me than moving within a sleeping bag, there was a learning curve.  Kind of like that first night or two out each year getting used to sleeping on the ground and in a sleeping bag again, there were a few nights of getting used to using a quilt and un- or semi-consciously adjusting the quilt without fully waking.  Now, I greatly prefer a quilt.

[Lori P]

I have three season quilts and 0 degree quilts. i don’t snow camp often, but I do take the quilt, with adequate pad beneath and a heavier base layer/balaclava.

I have to toss and turn, as a side sleeper, and it’s habit now to tuck in and go back to sleep without freezing to death, been using quilts since before EE was even an option so I have Jacks R Better and Hammock Gear quilts, use them without straps and have zero issues with them.

[Richie S]

I still switch from quilt to bag when temperatures hit feezing. I can just about stay warm but never manage to get the cozy feeling in a quilt.

[Ryan Jordan]

For me:

• quilts are more comfortable (more room to move around and get comfortable).
• bags keep me warmer when it’s “cold”

Here’s a how-to article getting the most out of your quilt.

My decision framework for making the choice for quilt vs. bag is *generally* this:

Will the forecast on most nights during my trip be below freezing but above 15 or so?

1. If yes, then am I packing a puffy hoody and puffy pants?
   1. If yes, then I take a 20 degree quilt.
   2. If no, then I take a 10 or 15 degree bag.
2. If no, then I take a 20 degree quilt if the low forecast is below freezing, and a 40 degree quilt if it’s above freezing.

This is a very general framework. It’s doesn’t consider the more complicated situations where I may bring a synthetic outer quilt in a 2-layer system (mostly for early season wet weather and cold conditions on glacier mountaineering trips), or when the forecasted low temperatures are either colder than the teens or warmer than the 60s. Or when I’m on a very long trip and “every ounce counts more…”

[Patty D]

Thanks.  Can you give more detail on the trimming of the Z-Lite and why it would help?

[James Marco]

Patty, starting about 24″ up, I slowly round the edge to the lower corner on both sides. I do this on both sides. Sort’a like this:

The CCF pad (it could be a ZLite or even a blue wall mart pad)actually goes into the bottom of the quilt. The pad then sits on top of a NeoAir or similar inflatable. So, it traps heat for my lower 1/3 body (mostly my legs) but leaves the rest over me.

[Patty D]

hmmm, interesting.  so you find this to be a WARMER solution….  I would have had the Zlite under the NeoAir if using both so never would have thought of this…..it also possibly solves the whole dislike of the Neoair to start with…..always rolling off it.

To all others, thank you for your thoughts.  New viewers, keep your thoughts coming.  I’m still undecided and still debating.  I do love my WM Versalite and Im feeling like its got to be a about a 10oz weight savings to make the switch justifiable.

[James Marco]

Well, yes, a couple degrees warmer. This is due to, mostly, edge bleeding of heat with inflatables. Air towards the outside edges of my neoair, and others I presume, are not always covered by most quilts. This leaves part of the edges cooling quite rapidly setting up some air circulation within the pad, itself. Roger said to try the CCF pad over the neoair several years ago. Yes, it helps. It will get down to 32F OK, but I am stubborn…I push for 20F.

When I used a 40F bag and a neoair, I called it a 32F system even though I have taken it down to 27F a couple times. I used a down jacket (sweater) and a set of long johns. But I was a bit younger and had a higher metabolism. Nowdays, I need a 20F quilt with my down jacket and two sets of long johns to be comfortable at 20F. This is waiting till just before dark to eat (usually something with a lot of fats, carbs and proteins) and go to bed. So a lot depends on your age, metabolism, and what and how you eat, too.

Anyway, the more baffles or layers in a pad, the less this “edge bleeding” effect has, but the more it weighs. The XTherm, for example has three layers of baffles and two complete IR barriers. Only one is effective, of course, but this is significantly warmer than a plane jane neoair. It weighs 15oz. The XLite weighs 12oz. So, adding a 6oz pad is just a poor mans way to increase warmth to the neoair at a 3oz cost. But, the next level of baffles (say 4 sets of baffles and 3 sheet baffles) would actually cost much more (around 6oz) for little gain…something like an R.3. Adding down also reduces the need for a lot of baffling, but you cannot blow them up by mouth due to water vapour and they weigh about 2 pounds.

Anyway, getting back to quilts, I find I need a long to cover my head (I am getting fairly bald) and I need the wide because I am a restless sleeper. Like I say, bags do better for me below 20F. Between 20F and 32F it is mostly about the same. Above 32F, I save about 12oz by skipping the neoair and only using a CCF pad. Ryan does about the same, but he is younger. He can go lower with the same insulation than I. But the same concept applies.

His old article stressed the Big Agness top bags popular 7-10 years ago. Most didn’t buy them. And the wearable stuff/”elephants foot” style was always too warm for any amount of hiking, at least for me. Though to be fair, this is about what I do with my down jacket, but it is light enough (12oz) that using it to hike in at 27-37F is still possible. I almost never get cold above 40F while hiking. So, as far as my choices, that left only a quilt and bag. Both have advantages.

The “mummy” discussion was kind of moot. Packs haven’t really changed in hundreds of years. A good concept, like the mummy, is always a good concept, even if it isn’t perfect.

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