MLD Pro Silnylon 2015-2016

[Richard Nisley]

I tested this fabric today and in summary, the results are about par with other US cottage manufacture’s silnylon products I have tested over the past few years. I STRONGLY encourage Roger C. or any other forum member with access to a HH tester, to independently test the HH of this fabric and post their results in this thread.

5mm Field of View Micrograph (void visibility analysis is generally consistent with the HH test results)

Areal Density: 1.7 oz/yd (spec)
Average Thickness: .090mm
Average HH: 1160 mm H2O

[Gary Pikovsky]

Richard – BPL needs to hire you to help produce new and insightful articles. :)

[J-L]

That is a substantially different result than what MLD posted on their Facebook page for their 2016 Pro Silnylon (see post on February 9th, 2016).

Ron posted:

3500mm: no leaks

7000mm: few leaks begin forming

[Richard Nisley]

Were the red Duomids built using two different fabric coatings?  If so, on what date did the red Duomid fabric coating transition take place?

This product was ordered from MLD on 1/21/16 and so I assumed it was a 2016 Duomid and manufactured with MLD 2016 silnylon Pro.

 

 

 

[J-L]

According to the Facebook post on their 2016 Pro Silnylon, Ron posted “we have the new stuff in Yellow, Gray and Brown”. That was posted on February 9th, 2016, so I assume they transitioned around that date. It does not seem Red is available as a fabric choice any more.

Ron also posted a video of some fabric tear tests that same day (I can’t figure out how to link it), which had the following fabric descriptions:

#3 Older MLD Silnylon 30d nylon silicone-PU blend / silicone-PU blend coated about 1.7oz sq/yd
#4 NEW 2016 MLD PRO SILNYLON 30d Silicone/Silicone coated about 1.5oz/sqyd

I emailed if I could buy some of their fabric and was told no (understandable – but the fabric did sound great!)

[Richard Nisley]

John,

YOUR ARE DA MAN!… thank you for your sleuthing. I now I understand the HH values for all the different versions of the MLD Duomid.

The red 2016 Duomids that MLD sold were not manufactured using the 2016 Pro Silnylon. On the MLD Fabric Mojo page it states in part: “MLD Pro Silnylon 2015 30d X 30d High Tenacity Type 6-6 RipStop Nylon coated with a Silicone-PU coating. Each side get two coating passes for the most even coating possible. About 1.5oz sq/yd – Pro Silnylon does not mist or leak in any weather condition.” This is what I tested today at 1160mm HH.

“Our 2016 Silnylon is about 3X the water proofness of older versions for an even longer service life.” 1,160mm x 3 = approximately 3,500 for 2016 Duomids, manufactured in colors OTHER THAN RED, which is what Ron tested as 3,500mm HH on FB.

 

 

[Sam Farrington]

So Richard, now it’s only fair to test some material from TarpTent.
Suspect that MYOG rules in the tent fabric dept.

[Richard Nisley]

If I were a betting man I would wager that Henry still does and Ron used to source their fabric from Westmark Corp. ~1200 mm has been the recent historical norm for their silnylon. I would guess that even Andrew S.’s employer uses that silnylon source.

[James holden]

Its amazing how for years manufacturers use sil that was “borderline waterproof”

Some still do ….

;)

[David L]

“Its amazing how for years manufacturers use sil that was “borderline waterproof””

What is amazing is that we all stayed dry.

[Richard Nisley]

Do a Google search for “silnylon misting” and you will get ~2,600 hits.

What “is amazing” is “not that we all stayed dry”; it is how the problem has been primarily addressed to date by BS. Just tell a customer “it is only condensation getting knocked off the material”.

Congratulations to MLD and some other vendors for actually offering a real solution to the problem.

[David L]

I would wager that 99% of those claims of misting are in fact condensation.

Regardless, the bigger issue is why the ProSilnylon that has been available for almost 5 years was claimed to have a HH of 3500mm?  Your test clearly proves that wrong and yet you state that MLD now has fabric with a higher HH.  Richard, did you get a sample of the ‘new’ fabric to test?

Big Agnes, MSR, et al, all have flies with claimed HH of 1000 to 1200 mm.  Do these canopies leak?  Is it so widespread that the warranty claims have been overwhelming causing the manufacturers to use more ‘waterproof’ materials?  Well, the answer is no.  So for a canopy or fly, it isn’t hard to find evidence that suggests this range of HH is just fine.  Most of the very early silnylon used (i.e. 10 years ago), had a HH of 600mm or so.  In fact, I do believe that you had presented some findings to that fact.

This may all be for naught anyway.  A quick spray of Atsko on the fabric and there won’t be any question regarding ‘waterproofness.’

Maybe a better definition of waterproof is required?

 

[James holden]

I took my new TT Rainbow out on a 3 night hike this week and on the last night we were in one of those “howling winds, driving rain” storms on the side of a mountain.

One thing I noticed is that a fine mist seemed to somehow come through the tent walls – at first I thought it was my imagination but I put my headlight on and could see the reflections of the mist. It was almost like someone was spraying a flower mister every few minutes or something.

It wasn’t devastating and nothing go seriously wet but in the morning everything in my tent was damp even though no rain entered the tent directly. Condensation was not an issue.

Is this something unique to Tarptents? I’ve been through some serious weather, including a tropical storm, in my Lunar Solo/Duo and have never experienced this before.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/68991-Tarptent-question

We recently purchased a Marmot Astral 2P tent with a rain fly & footprint. Our first two nights on the trail (from Davenport Gap to Hot Springs), we were pleased with the tent: it weighs less than 5 lbs. & is roomy enough for me & my husband. However, on night three (two nights ago if any of you were near Garenflo Gap then), the skies opened up & we received a hard rain for several hours. We knew that we would experience condensation & that the inside walls of our tent would be wet to the touch; however, what we didn’t expect was the mist that seemed to settle all around us, causing the tops of our sleeping bags to be wet, along with anything else that was exposed in the tent. In addition, when the sudden rains caused run-off under our tent, our floor was wet–not puddles, or course, but we definitely would have been wet if we had not had sleeping pads between the floor & our sleeping bags. Is all of this normal? We were expecting more protection from our rain fly cover. Were we expecting too much? I can’t imagine how wet we would have eventually gotten had it rained all night instead of just two or three hours!

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/104168-How-waterproof-should-I-expect-my-tent-to-be

do a simple search and youll fine more …

i suspect many simply contact the manufacturer and they deal with it …

condensation can be a problem … but if you know the difference it should be pretty easy to tell the difference between misting and condensation being knocked off

;)

[Billy Ray]

All this is yet another example of gear makers cutting things so close to save weight that the products don’t perform as well as heavier products. And we fools pay twice as much for things that don’t work as well just so we can have the lightest stuff :(

billy

[Richard Nisley]

David,

The European Union has laws designed to insure honest manufacturing specifications. One is the EN13537 standard which prevents manufacturers who sell sleeping  bags there from BSing the consumer regarding their temperature ratings.

Another EU standard is the definition of rainproof being >1,500 mm HH. You can’t manufacturer a 1,200 mm HH shelter there and BS the consumer by calling it rainproof.

I did not get a sample of the 2016 Pro Silnylon from MLD to test.

Regarding dismissing the thousands of Web references found by a simple Google search of “silnylon misting” as ONLY condensation and not knowing the actual HH for each shelter referenced… – What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. – Christopher Hitchens

[Billy Ray]

We used to have ‘truth in advertising’ laws here in the USA.

I can remember big corporations getting find.. and shamed… would ruin their reputation…

maybe they’re still on the books today… but they sure don’t enforce them.

I suspect big corporate money buying politicians has gutted these laws in American where we pay homage to the all powerful god known by the name, ‘dollar’

billy

[David L]

Sorry Eric – those experiences describe condensation.  More than likely with the Tarptent, the user was in very high humidity and fine mist was being shaken off the walls.

“condensation can be a problem … but if you know the difference it should be pretty easy to tell the difference between misting and condensation being knocked off”

Oh really?  Can you explain how?  Especially on a single walled shelter.  In my Hilleberg Akto, I used to get a mist in really high humidity conditions as rain pelted the canopy.  Guess what?  That was condensation.

Also, “However, on night three (two nights ago if any of you were near Garenflo Gap then), the skies opened up & we received a hard rain for several hours. We knew that we would experience condensation & that the inside walls of our tent would be wet to the touch; however, what we didn’t expect was the mist that seemed to settle all around us, causing the tops of our sleeping bags to be wet, along with anything else that was exposed in the tent.”

Two people stuck in a small tent in a high humidity environment and the user was suprised that there was some ‘mist’ settling on their sleeping bag?  Having backpacked extensively in your neck of the woods, I am surprised you would even post that (Eric lives in Vancouver).  I have had clothes get covered in a fine mist walking around Vancouver when it isn’t even raining but there is enough humidity in the air with falling temperatures to coat my…uh…coat.

[David L]

“Another EU standard is the definition of rainproof being >1,500 mm HH. You can’t manufacturer a 1,200 mm HH shelter there and BS the consumer by calling it rainproof.”

Whoa.  So what you are saying is that many of the Big Agnes, MSR, Hilleberg Yellow Label, Terra Nova, and Sierra Dsigns (to just name a few mainstream manufacturers) claiming their tents are waterproof but really aren’t (market between 1000 and 1200 mm of HH)?

Richard, first you say “Do a Google search for “silnylon misting” and you will get ~2,600 hits.” and then you say “Regarding dismissing the thousands of Web references found by a simple Google search of “silnylon misting” as condensation and not knowing the actual HH for each shelter referenced so as to gauge the relative potential contribution of each water source – What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. – Christopher Hitchens”  Ergo, by your own admission, it may not be misting unless we tested the HH in every situation.

Any chance you can test some recent Tarptent fabric?

 

[James holden]

david…

its pretty easy …

here is “condensation knocked off by heavy rain” …

 

if you ever experienced it in the winter rains out here you would know that there is specific splatter (not mist) of the condensation coming off the fly every time the rain hit … its pretty easy to tell the difference if youve experienced it … its NOT “mist” but splatter

of course thats different from the condensation we normally get on things like clothes due to the ambient humidity …

now im NOT saying that condensation getting knocked off doesnt happen, in fact its likely MORE common than misting… and that some folks who dont know the difference might mistake it for “misting” …

but misting does happen … even some manufacturer reps admit it … theres a reason why many cottage manufacturers have upgraded to higher HH sil …

here is another one from a fellow BPLer …

Well, that will be the last time I use single-skin silnylon in the mad deluge rain of Japan! This last weekend my wife and I went for a three-day walk in Yatsugatake west of Tokyo and when evening came on the second night we put our packs down, ready to set up our TarpTent Squall 2, when suddenly the sky opened up and a deluge like we’d never seen before came roaring down. We raced to get the shelter up and throw in the pack and get out of the downpour. Once inside we pulled out our few belongings, including our sleeping bags. While we were doing this I noticed that a film of water develop over everything and when I examined the ceiling actually saw drops forming everywhere and small blasts of mist bursting all along the top of the tent. Within twenty minutes all our gear was sopping wet and we had to stash our sleeping bags in the pack liners. We were up all night long (over ten hours) both due to the wetness and the thunder of the rain on the roof.

There is nothing wrong with the TarpTent Squall 2. It’s the shortcoming of silnylon, definitely not up to the task of dealing with such wild rain. I haven’t tried my The One in such weather yet, so I don’t know how it will handle (I’ve heard quite a lot that spinnaker and cuben don’t mist), but for the first time since going ultralight I am seriously considering going back to a double wall tent for alpine walking when rain is possible here in Japan. I’m certainly glad that I never had to deal with such torrential rain using my homemade silnylon shelters, made with silnylon inferior to that used by Henry Shires!

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/14966/

 

i think its great that you now changed your view to “misting is a myth” there david … just a few years ago you were quite adamant about it …now im NOT

oh and terra nova tests over 3500mm HH for their 30D sil as confirmed by richard …. so tents made out of that fabric are functionally “rain proof” as required by EU norms

 

;)

 

 

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Misting happens. I experienced it a few times in my Tarptent Moment. Definitely wasn’t condensation. Why? Well before anyone blasts me and tells me I don’t understand physics, I’ll outlay it first that I’m a research scientist who understands basic physics. My travelling companion, also in an identical Tarptent Moment, has a PhD in Physics.

The first couple of times, was in the Kalahari desert. Both tents were bone dry. The air was bone dry. Its a desert (I’m a desert ecologist), I understand the conditions. There was almost no humidity. Thunderstorm comes in, quickly, just after we pitched them. There was no condensation, there was no time for it to develop. The thunderstorm was a front. This means, warm humid air moving in. Within five minutes of the pitch, we both jumped inside our tents. Within a minute, huge, heavy rain…and it came through almost instantly. Luckily it was warm enough that we didn’t need our down sleeping bags, just laid on our mats getting wet. After a while I got out my mosquito net (which I had modified one each for both of us with a spinnaker floor) to lay over the top of me, as I couldn’t sleep with the light spitting on me, also to keep some of my gear dry inside. This happened a couple of nights in a row. It also happened other times in the trip, in tropical Tanzania, and later and more worryingly, a couple of times in Europe (where it was colder). We learnt in Europe to camp with a bit of forest cover to reduce the rainfall Kinetic Energy. Of course by the time we got to Europe (cycle touring) our TarpTents had a few months use on them.

Bare in mind, that I was fully aware of the concept of misting, HH, etc, before the trip. We carefully prepared our brand new 2010 Moments, carefully seam sealing to spec, as well as applying extra silicon coating (using a thinner solution) to the upper portions of the silnylon (where its more perpendicular to the rain) to give it a slightly thicker coating.

It totally happens.

I’ve experienced condensation shaking off in plenty of other more heavier duty tents (inc double walls) in the past too. Tents with huge HH flies like Macpac Olympus and Hillebergs. I know the difference.

[David L]

Eric Tran, I am no longer convinced but thanks for posting a note from 6 years ago.  We have switched places!  If you had been using a single walled shelter and had rain knock off that condensation onto your person I am absolutely sure you would have experienced “misting.” I am also sure you would have not been able to tell the difference.  Come to think of it, you keep posting that picture but isn’t that from when you set the Terra Nova up in your backyard over night but we’re not actually in the tent or am I wrong? If so, how can you experience “misting” while not in the tent? By your own admission, that was condensation on the outside of the inner tent.  If the inner tent had been removed and the condensation had been knocked off the fly, you would have likely been ‘spritzed’ with moisture or ‘misted.’

“This means, warm humid air moving in.” If the inside of your tent was at a different temperature, how do you know that condensation did not form on the inside of the fly?  It can happen extremely quickly.

We can go back and forth on this but I remain unconvinced after 100’s of nights in the backcountry over the past 6 years (much to the chagrin of Mr. Tran, I am sure) and a lack of warranty claims for this issue by the major manufacturers (who sell their tents in europe claiming waterproofness as well).  We know that there were batches of silnylon sold for a spell that had a HH of something like 500mm.  This fabric simply leaked with droplets rolling down.  Consider me a contrarian.

I did mention that Atsko solves any issue perceived or otherwise.

[Jerry Adams]

I have cheap seconds silnylon mid, so I assume it has low HH, but who knows

I’ve felt misting a few times, but I didn’t notice my gear getting wet.  I’ve used it a lot and it often rains.  Occasional hard rain.  Condensation is more of a problem.

All my gear is rain resistant.  I usually put non rain resistant gear inside a waterproof bag.

If you have a problem with misting, you could always set tent up, coat outside with mineral spirits:silicone 10:1

That being said, if I was buying fabric, I would make an effort to get higher HH fabric

I think I’d avoid PU fabric because it weakens it, vs silicone strengthening it

A mid has steep walls so inherently more rain resistant

[James holden]

david …

i was absolutely in the tent when it “misted” (not misting) overnight … really condensation being knocked off … you could feel it with every drop of rain …

you do know one does have to sleep in the tent on those 40mm+ rain days/nights to see if the condensation management works?

it doesnt matter if yr convinced .. we have experienced fellow BPLers telling us their experiences …

disregard em if you will … but again notice that most cottage manufacturers have went to >3000mm HH sil the last few years …

even our manufacturers reps say misting can happen … tarptent has since upgraded the HH …

again condensation is probably more likely

but to dismiss misting out of hand and the experience of fellow BPLers …

just because you never encountered it …

;)

[David L]

Eric – we also have BPL’ers claiming that misting is a myth.  Do the search.

“i was absolutely in the tent when it “misted” (not misting) overnight … really condensation being knocked off … you could feel it with every drop of rain …”

So you had condensation being knocked off the inner and it was like a ‘misting’?  That is kind of my point.  Can one tell if there is this ‘misting’ of the fabric or is it condensation?

Lets be clear here, however.  Misting, as defined, is not leaking because it implies a wide swath of fabric gently covering you with mist.  Versus a leak that is, well, a leak.

I have encountered ‘misting,’ of course, generally noticeable in single walled shelters for obvious reasons, but am convinced that it was condensation and not a wide berth of fabric spraying me with mist.

 

[James holden]

no david ..

i had condensation being knocked off and am saying it WASNT misting …

and its pretty easy to tell … the drops that were knocked off from the interior condensation were a bit large to be “mist”, and you could easily see the condensation being knocked off (and feel it pooling ready for the next “impact”)

if you want to see misting, simply spray a low HH fabric with a garden pressure hose …

one thing is when the HH gets low enough the water can actually “leak” through the fabric (not just the seam) onto the other side … now that may be one of the cases that appears to be “like condensation”, though even then its not that hard to tell as you dont get ALOT of condensation very fast when it rains, it buids up gradually …

not too sure why your arguing misting is a myth, when even manufacturer reps say it can happen

regardless there isnt any really good reason to NOT going with higher HH fabrics … especially as most the new big cottage offerings have it anyways

;)

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