- Jun 13, 2019 at 10:48 am #3597618
Franco DarioliBPL Member
NMJun 13, 2019 at 2:24 pm #3597634
I don’t really care about that; I found it odd and funny that his post had been reported, as if someone here was going to read that and decide to forgo maps or a compass or any other preparation. If I were a good writer I would write a story about this guy Gully McBall that’s been reading BPL and decides to leave The (communal) wife and kids to follow his Bliss bar on the trail. He decided not to pack his fears but pack his poops out instead. To save food weight he eats a bunch on the way to the trailhead but a couple hours in he’s trying to fit the problem into a tube using a shortened plastic spork ( it breaks but it is lighter than titanium and multi use and a bit of hand sanitizer will ready it for the cold soup). It gets chilly at night but he read that the puffy is for preppers ; left the matches at home because fires are for silly backward people that spend too much time enjoying camp. You get the idea. Then to top it off he gets lost because of Justin.Jun 13, 2019 at 2:48 pm #3597635
Well, I certainly have no problem discussing remote viewing. My only issue is whether the conversation belongs in a thread on navigation. If this is the appropriate place to have the conversation, we should not just hear one side of the issue.
For those who may not have heard of the term, “remote viewing” is clairvoyance – psychic powers, extra-sensory perception. Justin is recommending using psychic powers to rescue yourself if you get lost. Perhaps we should also pack a ouija board to communicate with Search & Rescue, or should we use telepathy? And have you remembered to include colored crystals in your first aid kit? For BPLers, do crystals still retain their potent healing powers if you hollow them out?Jun 13, 2019 at 2:49 pm #3597636
^ Justin is not “recommending” anything.Jun 13, 2019 at 3:08 pm #3597637
Kattt, that’s a distinction without a difference. He’s discussing psychic powers in a conversation about navigation, implying that he thinks it’s relevant to navigation, and something that people should consider.
Note that Justin raised the issue in the context of the hiker who got lost in Hawaii. When she initially got disoriented, but was only a few feet from the trail, rather than simply return the way she had come, she said she followed her “very strong gut instinct” – which led her in the wrong direction, wandering the wilderness lost for days. Yet Justin claims that following your gut instinct may be the right thing do – because you may have psychic powers.
If we want to talk about whether psychic powers are real, that’s fine – but we should not just hear one side of the debate, and in my opinion this thread is not the place for that debate. Because if someone rebuts Justin’s claims, he’s not going to let it go, and it’s going to hijack a serious discussion.
Jun 13, 2019 at 3:16 pm #3597639
- This reply was modified 4 days, 20 hours ago by Ralph Burgess.
- This reply was modified 4 days, 19 hours ago by Ralph Burgess.
- This reply was modified 4 days, 19 hours ago by Ralph Burgess.
- This reply was modified 4 days, 19 hours ago by Ralph Burgess.
- This reply was modified 4 days, 19 hours ago by Ralph Burgess.
“Kattt, the project Stargate Justin was referring to was heavily influenced by Scientology , it proved to be a total waste of time and money.”
A few points: 1. These programs, over the years, as changes were made, ended up having a number of names, not just Stargate. For example, Grill Flame, Sun Streak, and INSCOM Center Lane Program. It’s also on record that they payed Robert A. Monroe several thousand dollars to have agents go down to The Monroe Institute to train under him, using the audio technology Hemi-Sync.
Do you have a link, with evidence, to the supposed Scientology connection? But let’s entertain that for a moment, even if one of the people had connections to Scientology, these programs went on for nearly 18 years, and involved collaboration between the DIA (I got this alphabet agency mixed up with another D one earlier) and the US army. Meaning, over the years, many different people were involved with it.
Hard to believe that every singe person involved were scientologists. Talk about a “theory” not holding a lot of water, when held up to the light of holistic logic.
“BTW, can I remind you that the only time Justin tried to give a demonstration of his powers he failed ?”
Au Contraire. I did two public remote viewing experiments here at BPL, with two different BPL members. The instructions for the other people were as follows: Pick a relatively simple, static object, and then assign a completely random number sequence to it. The numbers should have no meaning to you or in general (that’s important).
One of the folks collaborating, didn’t stick to the instructions, and the number they assigned had a connection their squadron or base or something like that. Then, the target they chose ended up being a scene in a vampire movie (not a simple, static object.. a very complex target that should be reserved for the Olympics of remote viewers and viewing, of which I am not at the level of yet).
That one was weird and had all sorts of data bleed through. I was getting military stuff, combined with flying stuff, a great white shark. It made no sense to me. I thought it a failure both on my end (and also on their end for not adhering to the instructions) but the person collaborating actually thought there were more hits in it than I did. He found it interesting at least.
The 2nd one, the person did follow the instructions to pick a completely neutral and random set of numbers to represent the target.
The combination of things that I got, was of a circle with something that looked like spokes, and pentagon shapes. I also got a visual impression of “a man fishing”.
The target was a soccer ball. Now, it ended up being one of those new fangled, fancy looking soccer balls with a different design than the old, standard ones. However, I am not strongly familiar with those types, but primarily the long time, older, standard ones with the pentagon shapes on it. When I think “soccer ball” I automatically think/picture the connected pentagon shaped ones. Hence, my unconscious used what I knew and was familiar to describe a whole concept, rather than get caught up in little details that would have been very hard to interpret for me, having no reference base.
I would call those hits far beyond what chance would allow, because I described all the basic features and geometries of a soccer ball. In actual US military remote viewing protocol, the remote viewer is not suppose to try to interpret the data, but only describe the main features and impressions they are getting. That, then goes to a team of people to try to put it all together. When the analytical, step by step, linear logical mind gets overly involved, it easily leads to distortions, hence why the specific protocol that they figured out after a while of doing this stuff.
Now the brief visualization of a man fishing was quite interesting. Part of the instructions of this whole thing, was that we were suppose to coordinate the time of our respective reveals to do so at about the same time, with mine shortly before his (so cheating could not take place). We had mutually agreed to a set time for him to share the target and for me to share my results. Just a few hours before this, we had communicated to firm up the specific times for the reveal.
When it came time for the reveal, I posted my results at the exact time I was suppose to, but naught but crickets from the other side, for awhile. When he did eventually reply with the target and with an explanation of what happened, he said that he and his son had went for a hike and he kind of forgot about the specific timing part (despite we had communicated literally a few hours before hand).
How I interpreted the “the man fishing” part? I believe it was a precognitive hit of probable future event stuff. There is an old, well known saying, “he’s gone fishing”, which one of the common meanings of same is essentially, dropping one’s duty to go have fun, to check out so to speak. You know how they say a picture says a thousand words? Well that’s true, and that’s how our subconscious/unconscious speaks to us, and why dreams are filled with symbols and metaphors, to communicate large amounts of information, in a quicker, more holistic and efficient manner.
It should be noted that sometime after this, Franco, made a comment about how I would only partake in something that I could cheat on, not only casting dishonest insinuations towards myself, but also the two BPL members that were collaborating, or might collaborate in the future.
It should also be noted the backstory to this, and how it all got started to begin. In a post and a thread, I made a casual remark about how I was thinking about eventually enlisting BPL/it’s members to maybe help me hone my remote viewing skills. My dear friend here Franco, saw that, and decided to make a thread about it, trying to force the issue and me to start right then and there. How kind and thoughtful.
There had originally been a 3rd experiment scheduled, but after the first two, I was a bit frustrated with the lack of care and concern that was being given to the whole thing by the people helping, and so I said I wouldn’t be doing another one.
But Franco can have his black and white version if he would like (smile). After I find the links to the experiments, I will post them for any interested.
I will say, while there were some definite hits far beyond what chance would allow, especially in the latter one, the other times I had remote viewed, I got even more clear hits. But, I think the point and thing to take away from the whole thing was that I believed enough in this potential, to put my neck out and my reputation on the line, to sink or swim.
On another note, eventually, when I retire, I shall work on a line of fragrance called Obsessive Compulsive Obsession, and on the picture of the bottle, shall be a Mediterranean man, and a Scottish man, where the Scottish man is standing with his back to the Mediterranean man, and the latter man is staring intensely at the back of the Scottish man, almost with a combo of hatred and yet, also perhaps some longing. Sort of a non mutual, Broke Back Mountain dynamic.Jun 13, 2019 at 3:27 pm #3597645
“Kattt, that’s a distinction without a difference. He’s discussing psychic powers in a conversation about navigation, implying that he thinks it’s relevant to navigation, and something that people should consider. If we want to talk about whether psychic powers are real, that’s fine – but we should not just hear one side of the debate, and in my opinion this thread is not the place for that debate. Because if someone rebuts Justin’s claims, he’s not going to let it go, and it’s going to hijack a serious discussion.”
In case you missed it Ralph, THIS is what I actually recommended and outlined earlier:
“But in case it wasn’t clear, I am not recommending this to others. A good compass and map should be something one is carrying around and knows how to use if they are in such areas. However, if one still gets lost despite all “good practices” or the like, then nice to know that such potential exists if you train, practice, and hone same (as I believe almost all can do, if there is just a little open mindedness to try and practice).”
Also, at the beginning, I stated that I had successfully used intuition/gut instinct to find my way when having been lost before. Hence, for me, this IS indeed a serious discussion. You just can’t wrap your head around that some people have very different experiences and perceptions than yourself or the majority, and thus you have a basic intolerance to those perceptions/experiences/knowns that greatly differ than yours.
And no, I’m not going to back down when people try to bully me into submission to go along with the rest of the crowd. I am who I am, if you don’t like what I write, then you are grown arsed adult, who can either ignore/look over same, or you can debate the logic or lack thereof impersonally, again, like a grown adult.
I’m going to ask you again Ralph. Did you report my earlier post? I guess you didn’t see my question the first time around?Jun 13, 2019 at 3:31 pm #3597646
“I don’t really care about that; I found it odd and funny that his post had been reported, as if someone here was going to read that and decide to forgo maps or a compass or any other preparation…”
Hahaha funny story and premise Kattt!Jun 13, 2019 at 4:00 pm #3597651
In case it’s not obvious on how Remote viewing is potentially connected to using one’s intuition/gut instinct to find one’s way. Think in terms of the possibility that the larger reality that we exist in, may be one, which at it’s fundamental core exists in a combined state of non locality and entanglement. That everything is literally interconnected in a fundamental way. There only appears, at the macro level, to be separation between this or that.
At least a few of the original pioneering physicists, some truly brilliant people, that discovered quantum physics, were very open about how they believed that consciousness wasn’t derivative of matter, but that matter (or rather the perception of same) was actually derivative of consciousness. They also talked about some other “mystical” sounding like ideas in relation to their findings.
So, in other words, if remote viewing exists and can work when practiced at and honed, then the physics that allow for that, would also allow for someone to find their way, even without a conscious, physical reference base. Because all space/time exists within a one field and is completely interconnected.
This is the first thread about the remote viewing experiment:
1st experiment target/results: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/rv-test-target/
2nd experiment results: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/r-v-experiment-2-results/
2nd experiment target https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/r2-v2/
Note, at first, in the 2nd experiment, I first thought it an abject failure*, until I thought more deeply and holistically about it.
* And I did so initially, because I was previously use to getting even better and clearer hits. Perhaps partly because my ego was less involved the previous times, and more involved these BPL times. I’ve noticed that ego/fear/selfishness/separateness has a distorting effect on perception and really, on everything human or connected to same. It is the consciousness limiter par excellence. Whereas universal Love is the consciousness and perception expander and clarifier par excellence, or so I’ve noticed (yes, some pretty deep stuff here).Jun 13, 2019 at 5:44 pm #3597673
Kevin BuggieBPL Member
@kbugLocale: NW New Mexico
Glad they found him. Foliage obscuring distant landscape features is something I don’t miss about moving out of the deep south 25 years ago; its alot easier to get turned around back there than in the southwestern Rockies with our sight lines to discernable peaks and defined drainages.
*Also, the last sentence of the previous post is getting pretty chaffy, and maybe I’m not the only member who skips reading posts with bolded text for trolling emphasis. Seems to be more than the usual amount lately in numerous threads, but I’m strongly BPL-BO(be open), so just my observation and not a ‘report’Jun 13, 2019 at 5:50 pm #3597675
It’s a place that’s taught me to always keep a wristband button compass on my watchband AND LOOK AT IT FREQUENTLY.
Amen to that. But why not a proper baseplate protractor compass? A button compass is pretty limited when it comes to map navigation.Jun 13, 2019 at 6:38 pm #3597689
Justin, it’s odd that you evidently see Kattt as your ally on this. I know you’re sincere about this, and debating the issue is fine – I’m just asking where we should debate it. Whereas Kattt’s commentary is that it’s fine to talk about this here, because she doesn’t believe anyone would ever take your ideas seriously.Jun 13, 2019 at 6:53 pm #3597691
Monte MastersonBPL Member
@septimiusLocale: Changes Often
“But why not a proper baseplate protractor compass? A button compass is pretty much limited when it comes to map navigation.”
Often just a basic idea of magnetic North is all that’s needed. It can be huge because as others have stated, people tend to walk in circles when they don’t have even the most elemental guide to direction. A small 3 to 4 gram compass is something that people are willing to carry in a pocket. And how many people really know how to use a more sophisticated compass? Not many, so for the average hiker a button compass is infinitely better than nothing at all, but yes, not as god as a Silva protractor compass in capable hands.Jun 13, 2019 at 7:35 pm #3597702
Todd TBPL Member
@texasbbLocale: Pacific Northwest
But why not a proper baseplate protractor compass?
Just to add on to what @septimius said, those little button compasses are wonderful for simple stuff where precision is unimportant (e.g., get through a wooded section to intersect a trail in the fog). Mine (Suunto Clipper) stays clipped to one of my trekking pole straps. I can glance at it without pulling anything out of my pocket, removing any gloves, or even slowing my gait. I always have my baseplate compass and map for real navigation.Jun 13, 2019 at 7:47 pm #3597706
Well I have to admit, after the experience of finding myself with no compass at all due to the cock-up I posted above, I think I’ll take your suggestion and clip a little button compass to my poles. It would be a useful backup and a lot better than nothing.
And as you say, for low precision work it would be convenient to have it there.Jun 13, 2019 at 7:56 pm #3597707
I had ex-military scoutmasters in the 1970s so I’m pretty good with map and compass and with compass courses. Although I’d win the compass courses by converting those polar coordinates into rectangular, adding them up and getting the net result of, say, 40 feet to the north. My father in 1940s would bring graph paper and a protractor to complete his compass courses. Nerd power!
If I’m really going to have to triangulate off of two peaks, I’d use a sighting compass like a Suunto KB-20 or KB-14 which can be read to +/- one degree.
Although the last time I triangulated off two peaks was in California 30 years ago because I was teaching others how to do it. Since 1980 till 1994, I mostly used a Thommen altimeter because since trails, ridges and rivers are sloped, your altitude tells you exactly where you are.
The bigger problem with triangulating off of two peaks in the Aleutians, is when you need to, you can’t see the peaks due to the low cloud ceilings.
And there’s the GPS on my phone so I’ve got a backup.
The button compass keeps me from walking in a circle and allows me to quickly resume my general direction after deviating for a stream or steep slope. It’s also fabulous for stepping off the trail or away from camp to take a dump in the dark. “280º, 280º, 280º, 280º ” I’ll be saying to myself, then do the math: 280-180=100º and be saying “100º, 100º, 100º, 100º ” as I finish my business and return.
Note to self: add map and compass instruction to the father-daughter trip #5, next summer. Most/all of the daughters were in the my math program for 2 to 4 years, so it should go well.Jun 13, 2019 at 8:11 pm #3597710
Ah – the Thommen altimeter – that brings back memories. I have the high altitude one that I snagged off a friend returning from Everest in the ’70s (when climbing Everest really meant something). Probably a collector’s piece – I should put it up on eBay.
For precision navigation in the winter Cairngorms, where you are often trying to hit a small gap between deadly cornices, I use a previous incarnation of the Silva Expedition mirror-based sighting compass. Probably not quite as accurate as the Suunto, but you get a baseplate protractor as well, so more practical for my requirements. Overkill for most uses, but nice to have when precision really counts.Jun 13, 2019 at 8:38 pm #3597718
The aluminum-bodied KB-14 has straight edges so you can strike a line on a map easily enough (I’ve never used the scales on a baseplate, I just use my finger widths versus the scale on the paper map – I’m hiking, not targeting artillery).
The old grey cheaper, lighter plastic KB-20 doesn’t have a straight edge, but there are marks front and rear you can use albeit less conveniently. The newer yellow KB-20 is even more rounded, but you can epoxy a baseplate on, cut from a dollar-store plexiglass protractor.
There are also some knock-off sighting compasses on eBay that have a rectangular bases for $10 to $30 and a few of them have decent reviews. I’d consider those for Scout Troops doing classes on map and compass.
The little lens on a sighting compass is lighter, more accurate and quicker to use than a mirror-based compass. The mirror is, however, a mirror and therefore helpful for checking your face for sunburn, tick-checking the other side of your body, plucking nose hairs, shaving, and generally cleaning up before trying to hitch a ride.Jun 13, 2019 at 10:07 pm #3597737
Geoff: Climbing Everest still means something. But now it means you’re a stockbroker with an extra $50,000.Jun 14, 2019 at 4:26 am #3597796
“Justin, it’s odd that you evidently see Kattt as your ally on this… Whereas Kattt’s commentary is that it’s fine to talk about this here, because she doesn’t believe anyone would ever take your ideas seriously.”
Well Hallow Gov’nah, we got our very own Brit’esh psychic here, who can read minds and hearts and presumes to know what Kattt was “really” thinking and saying about this Justin character.The anti psychic, psychic guy. Blimey, will wonders never cease!
So sure about this? Willing to make a bet on it? Here’s the thing though, she actually recognized from the get go that I was not advising people to go out in the wilds and willy nilly use their intuition to find their way and to solely rely on that. She was not framing it in the same context that you were. You on the other hand, were putting words and concepts into my mouth that were never there to begin with.
Still not answering the simple, brief question I’ve asked you twice now. Don’t know what they call that in Britannica, but here they call it pretty rude, or avoiding some uncomfortable truth…
Hey, notice something, how you keep keeping the focus on me personally? Be wary of following in the footsteps of my steadfast BPL shadow, tis not pretty to start to get that obsessed with another. Pretty soon, and before you know it, you’ll only be able to relate to and enjoy the company of grumpy, anti-social felines.Jun 14, 2019 at 5:16 am #3597800
I’ve learned a few things today:
The technical definition of “Troll” has changed to mean, someone with different experiences and perceptions than yourself or the vaunted majority, and who, gasp, dare to sincerely and seriously talk about those experiences and perceptions out loud. Hmm, that means my spouse is a troll, my cat is a troll (she meow’s plenty, but I don’t understand any of it, which if you think about it, actually proves my point…), our housemates/tenants, neighbors, co-workers, etc, etc.
Trollception??? Trolltrix??? Alice in Trollsterland??? One Troll flew over the Cuckoos trolling nest??? Is there no safe haven, no refuge? We need conformity, strength in numbers and we need it now! Help keep and make group think belief systems great and safe again.
Other major lesson: BPL has a higher ratio of delicate, yet control freak snowflakes than self ever could have imagined and who wouldn’t know real tolerance if it hit them in the face. (Actually, I’ve been learning that since I’ve been here, some 7 or 8 years ago)
But a little more seriously. A brief, factual recap of the historical events of this thread. I am not the one who initially brought up people using gut instinct/intuition, but as soon as I mentioned having positive experiences with same, got jumped on, and basically told to shut up. When I defended myself and went into further detail about why I said what I said, then I morphed into a “troll”.
If folks know anything about psychology, then they would know that extremist and dehumanizing labels are a very convenient way for an ego to come to the “justified” stance of bashing another, because when you think of a person as an extremist, negative label, rather than an actual person with feelings etc, then it becomes all too easy to demonize and treat them however you feel like.
Indeed, so “open”.
But, back to compasses, a very original topic that never has been discussed on BPL. I’m sure the uber left brainers here can probably easily squeeze out another 30 or so posts debating and discussing the finer points of this or that compass. I mean, why talk about things that nobody else has ever talked about here? That would be pretty pointless and boring indeed. Same old, same old, now that’s exciting.
Self figures that at this point, may as well try to live up to the casually spat label. Ain’t no worse trolls than those ex angels who go rogue, cause man, they can see into souls, have very good perceptual capacity, and sharp humor like a rapier’s point.Jun 14, 2019 at 5:37 am #3597804
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.