Mid-layer question

[Bonzo]

So, I’m finally getting around to replacing my old, worn-out middle layers (seriously, some of the pieces are 20 years old at this point) and I’m trying to add some lightness to the equation while still retaining adequate warmth.  I usually wear a light merino base layer and then I start adding pieces to it…so, for the upcoming snowy-icy-altitudey stuff that I have in mind, I picked up a Macpac Nitro to work as a midlayer…but I don’t have a second option if I need more warmth.  I’m going to carry an Arc’teryx Gamma softshell, which isn’t really insulated but does work well over a fleece, and then my Mammut hardshell and whatever I end up picking out as a belay jacket (never had a proper one)…but there’s no additional midlayer.  So, opinons?  Should I just roll with what I have, or look for something in a slightly-warmer fleece or synthetic/down to replace the Nitro for when it’s at that cold-but-not-quite-cold-enough for more layers temp?  I really don’t want to add too much weight, but I also don’t want to get too chilly during lightly-active periods.

[Bruce Tolley]

I stick with merino wool for my baselayer as well.  But switching to a synthetic base will save weight.

But back to your question, when snow camping, even above the tree line, I don’t like to switch out layers during the day so I am not seeing any advantage to carrying a 2nd midlayer to replace the macpac hoody.  During the day, if I need an extra layer over my midlayer, I add my 20 year old Arcteryx Atom vest.  I also hardly ever wear my hardshell unless there is lots of wind because even with the vents wide open I start to get wet while snow shoeing with a pack on.

Since you are climbing which is more aerobic, your mid layer must be getting wet?

 

[Bonzo]

Bruce, I have a couple of synthetic bases as well; for this upcoming trip (and a few others) I figured that I would stick with one merino base, one synthetic, and possibly a short-sleeved merino tee in case I need a light layer over my core or in case it’s warmer than expected.

Also, yes: I hate swapping layers.  I tend to allow myself lots of room to be cold because I sweat so easily and profusely, so yes: my mid-layers can easily get wet.  I don’t enjoy that sensation in the least.  I also don’t like to use a hardshell unless I have to; they tend to do a decent job of keeping moisture out and an excellent job of keeping moisture in.

My main concern is that on this trip, I can foresee a lot of standing around and light movement; the belay jacket takes care of the former, but for some of the stop/start that I’m anticipating, I was just concerned that a 90-wt. fleece might not be warm enough, even under a softshell.  Sounds like that might be a misplaced worry, though.

[Bruce Tolley]

I don’t think your  worry is misplaced. I was once on a guided trip up Mt Shasta (14K) and we were waiting at Helen Lake (10.4K) while the guide checked the avalanche report with the backcountry ranger. We were standing/sitting around in a somewhat sheltered spot with high winds. Wearing just my base layer and a hardshell, I  started to get really cold.  At that time I did not own a puffy that would fit over all my kit. In the time I took to remove my shell and put on another layer, I got even colder perhaps hypothermic.  It did not help that the melted water froze into the zipper on my budget Marmot hardshell and I had to get my pocket knife out to chip ice to get the parka totally zipped up.

So now my layers go like this: merino wool hoody, light fleece hoody (Patagonia R1), Arcteryx Atom vest (optional), windbreaker (optional), softshell, Arcteryx hardshell, synthetic down belay jacket with hood.

I have found that a windshirt over the R1 midlayer works really well blocking wind that gets through the softshell. Also the windshirt and the synthetic puffy vest are easily accessible in the top of my pack.

[Mark Verber]

Are you concerned about warmth when moving or when you are static?

I really like the nitro.  I found it warmer than an R1 approaching a 200wt fleece when wind is blocked, but much less warm when ventilated which lets me use it over a huge range of temps just by zip/unzip the shell. I tend to run hot. When active I am wearing light base or tee + nitro + shell + gloves + hat keeps me comfortable a good bit below freezing. I like to feel slightly chilled and not sweating. When that’s not enough I add a high loft vest.  This has varied over the last 20 years: MB Thermal Wrap, WM Flash, MB Plasma. The Cumulus minilite looks to be a very good value, but is likely  too warm for me. When I slow / stop I have typically put a belay style jacket over everything.

Most softshells have a poor warmth/weight ratio. Their advantage (assuming they don’t have a membrane) is that they are more breathable than WPB jackets and more abrasion resistant compared to your typical windshirt. For several years I used a Rab Vapor Rise which worked nicely. My softshell rant

[Bonzo]

I don’t think your  worry is misplaced. I was once on a guided trip up Mt Shasta (14K) and we were waiting at Helen Lake (10.4K) while the guide checked the avalanche report with the backcountry ranger. We were standing/sitting around in a somewhat sheltered spot with high winds. Wearing just my base layer and a hardshell, I  started to get really cold.  At that time I did not own a puffy that would fit over all my kit. In the time I took to remove my shell and put on another layer, I got even colder perhaps hypothermic.  It did not help that the melted water froze into the zipper on my budget Marmot hardshell and I had to get my pocket knife out to chip ice to get the parka totally zipped up.

That does not sound like a fun time…and that kind of thing is exactly what I’m concerned about.  This is a guided trip in a new area, for me, so stop/start situations and slow movement are what worry me.  I’m not seriously concerned about long pauses – that’s why I’m spending money on the poofy jacket – but not having that second or alternate layer bothers me.  As of now, I can go with:

1. Long-sleeved merino/synthetic base.
2. Short-sleeved second base (optional).
3. Nitro fleece.
4. Softshell.
5. Hardshell.
6. Poofy.

I really don’t want to layer both the soft- and hardshells, or double up on my base layer unless I have to do so; each of those pairs is basically the same size and supposed to occupy the same space, although the hardshell is admittedly big enough to go over the softshell…but it creates a very bulky feeling in the arms when I do that.

Are you concerned about warmth when moving or when you are static?

In this case, when moving intermittently or slowly.

I really like the nitro.  I found it warmer than an R1 approaching a 200wt fleece when wind is blocked, but much less warm when ventilated which lets me use it over a huge range of temps just by zip/unzip the shell. I tend to run hot. When active I am wearing light base or tee + nitro + shell + gloves + hat keeps me comfortable a good bit below freezing. I like to feel slightly chilled and not sweating. When that’s not enough I add a high loft vest.  This has varied over the last 20 years: MB Thermal Wrap, WM Flash, MB Plasma. The Cumulus minilite looks to be a very good value, but is likely  too warm for me. When I slow / stop I have typically put a belay style jacket over everything.

That is good info; thank you.  I honestly hadn’t thought much about a vest, but now that it’s been mentioned I like the idea of it.  If I add a vest to the mix, the layers can change to:

1. Long-sleeved merino/synthetic base.
2. Nitro fleece.
3. Vest (optional).
4. Softshell or hardshell.
5. Poofy.

I like that layer scheme a lot better.  Hmmm…might be time to start shopping vests.

[Mark Verber]

When I am not going to overheat from activity I use exactly the same layering – 5 piece – as you wrote. When it’s a bit warmer the shell is directly over the nitro and the vest is layered on top when I activity slows, puffy when activity stops.

FWIW: I have been a bit disappointed with the fit of MB Plasma Vest on my body. I purchased mail order to get the Japanese version with pockets. I found it was too lose in the trunk and didn’t seal well around the neck.

One thing that really bothers me is when multiple layers feels like it’s binding my arm movement, so I almost never use a medium to heavy softshell and a hardshell. I will use an unlined windshield like the old arcteryx squarmish or the bd alpine light over something like the nitro when active and maybe have a hardshell in the unlikely case of real rain.

Last several years I have been using shells made from shakedry for all my backpacking “shell” needs.  Incredible performance but is expensive (initial price + frequency of replacement).

[Bonzo]

That’s good info, Mark; thank you.  I like that five-layer arrangement on paper, so knowing that it’s working for you in the field is a big reassurance.

Regarding vests: I really like the weight of the Cumulus Minilite; it’s tiny and packable and I feel like it’s a good size for me, as long as it’ll fit correctly over the Nitro hoodie (and I can probably estimate that with something similar that I already own).  I can also probably get a good price on an Approach Vest from BD.  Seems like it’s roughly the same weight, maybe an ounce heavier, which I don’t care about…unless it’s another ounce of goosedown.  Kind of hard to tell, from their site…but I know the fabric is a 10d instead of the 7d that Cumulus uses; that doesn’t bother me, either.

Other vest suggestions, aside from those already mentioned?

[Bonzo]

Did some research today; found a couple of options.  Here’s my current list:

https://cumulus.equipment/us_en/men-down-jacket-minilite.html

https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/product/m-approach-down-vest

https://featheredfriends.com/collections/down-garments/products/eos-mens-down-vest

https://www.westernmountaineering.com/down-garments/jackets-vests/flash-vest/

[Bonzo]

Quick update: I ended up with the Black Diamond version.  It was very close between that and the Cumulus, but I liked the cut of the BD a bit better, so I went that direction.

But now, there’s another issue: the fleecy pants that I was planning to use are very bulky under the softshell pants that I will be using…so does anyone have suggestions for a thin, light, warm layer that can go between a light base layer and a regular-cut softshell pant?  My legs don’t normally get cold, so I’m actually worried about being too hot.

Opinions?

[Author]

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