Looking for a not so soft shell jacket

[Haakon R]

I hesitate to ask for input on this. The word softshell means so many different things to different people, it could easily turn into people giving advice on what they would use instead.
But this isn’t Reddit, so I’ll give it a go.

I have WPBs in all flavors from UL rain jackets to beastly expedition jackets. All covered.
I have lightweight wind jackets and lightweight softshells.
I have heavier weight cotton and poly-cotton jackets.

For the most part I have enough shell jackets, but there are still times when I have a hard time picking.
The weather is too dry and/or the activity is too intensive for a WPB to be suitable.
The weather is too wet and/or the activity is intensive for a shell jacket with cotton to be suitable.
The wind jacket will be too flimsy. I struggle to explain, so just trust me on this.

On those occasions I often catch myself looking for something that feels as protective and sturdy as my winter season mountain WPB or my Fjällräven or Klattermusen mountain jacket, but I don’t want a WPB membrane and I don’t want a hydrophilic fabric.

One property I like about those jackets is the fact that they’re not very soft. The jackets have structure and shape of their own and don’t cling to my body when subjected to air pressure from wind or skiing down a hill.

I don’t want a membrane (obviously).
I don’t want a lofted inside or as little as possible (I just want a shell, not insulation).
And I want to avoid excessive stretch. Or.. I don’t mind the fact that my jacket stretches, just the downsides that (usually) comes with the territory e.g. higher percentage of hydrophilic fabric content (Lycra/elastane) and a softer, less densely weaved face fabric giving the jacket less of the structure and stiffness I’m looking for, and potentially making it less weather resistant.

Does something like that even exist?

[Mark Verber]

It might be too air permeable. but it sounds like the heavier versions Schoeller Dryskin Extreme.  You might also look  to companies that cater to cross country skiing.  beyondclothing.com used to make some nice options… they might still, I haven’t looked closely since they got more expensive and shift more to military / operator market.

[Roger Caffin]

Warning: extreme bias showing.
Cotton may be good for underpants, but I won’t ever wear it as an outer layer when walking. Dangerous stuff when wet.
With the possible exceptions of Ventile (never owned any) and oiled Japara – which went out of use maybe 40 or 50 years ago.

(SW Tasmania, late 60’s, oiled Japara jackets, and yes, they leaked a bit)

Cheers

[David D]

I was really curious about this as it seems like a unicorn so I asked ChatGPT using your criteria and it coughed out the following.  YMMV!

Carhartt Men’s Storm Defender Relaxed Fit Jacket · Heavy-duty work-style rain jacket with rugged fabric and protective coating; not designed for ultralight backpacking but excellent rain/wind resistance.
L.L.Bean Men’s Trail Model Rain Jacket · L.L.Bean · Classic outdoor rain jacket with durable, non-stretch fabric and simple waterproof coating.
Helly Hansen Gale Rain Jacket  Weatherproof shell with a durable face and coated construction.

[Haakon R]

It might be too air permeable. but it sounds like the heavier versions Schoeller Dryskin Extreme.  You might also look  to companies that cater to cross country skiing.  beyondclothing.com used to make some nice options… they might still, I haven’t looked closely since they got more expensive and shift more to military / operator market

Thank you for chiming in, Mark.
According to my AI of choice, Dryskin Extreme isn’t so much marketed as a distinct fabric anymore. Most is sold under the generic Dryskin moniker, with variable degree of cordura (extreme) depending on intended use.
To make it even harder for consumers to know what we’re buying, brands aren’t as eager to announce what their clothes are made of, as they used to be. And there’s lots of examples where they suddenly have switched from a brand name fabrics to a similar proprietary fabric from one year to another.

If you mention Beyond Fleece/Beyond Clothing to a 1000 Norwegians, you’d be lucky to find even one that’ve heard about them.
I stumbled upon them back when you could order semi-custom stuff from them. A very interesting company and concept. Didn’t have as much disposable income back then, so never got around to order anything before they pivoted to their current military/tactical focus. Your suggestion got me to swing by their site, but seems they’re still of little relevance to me.

I’ve ordered a Black Diamond Dawn Patrol to check it out. Internet rumor suggest it’s Dryskin Extreme, or was at some point.
I’ve read some Reddit threads that indicates it could be very close to what I’m looking for. A bit more elastane than I’d prefer, but if I’m too strict with my selection criteria I could end up spending more time on the acquisition process than actually wearing it, and that’s even less ideal.

[Haakon R]

Warning: extreme bias showing.
Cotton may be good for underpants, but I won’t ever wear it as an outer layer when walking. Dangerous stuff when wet.
With the possible exceptions of Ventile (never owned any) and oiled Japara – which went out of use maybe 40 or 50 years ago.

(SW Tasmania, late 60’s, oiled Japara jackets, and yes, they leaked a bit)

Thanks for replying, Roger.

I’m actually quite a fan of cotton in outer layers, but there’s a right and a wrong use for any material. Cotton has its use cases where it shines, but it’s not what I’m looking for this time around.

[Haakon R]

I was really curious about this as it seems like a unicorn so I asked ChatGPT using your criteria and it coughed out the following.  YMMV!

Carhartt Men’s Storm Defender Relaxed Fit Jacket · Heavy-duty work-style rain jacket with rugged fabric and protective coating; not designed for ultralight backpacking but excellent rain/wind resistance.
L.L.Bean Men’s Trail Model Rain Jacket · L.L.Bean · Classic outdoor rain jacket with durable, non-stretch fabric and simple waterproof coating.
Helly Hansen Gale Rain Jacket  Weatherproof shell with a durable face and coated construction.

David,
Either ChatGPT isn’t all that intelligent, or the prompt was possible to misinterpret.
All the suggestions you list are WPBs, i.e. specifically what I don’t want.

Thanks for trying though

[David D]

Sorry Haakon, I should have checked the results more closely.  The prompt clearly stated no WPB.  prompt was pretty clear (use ChatGPT daily)

[Haakon R]

No worries, David.

I regularly use AI for work as well as some tinkering on my free time, but didn’t think to use it for this until I read your post.
So in that way you still provided useful input :)

[Noah K]

Carhartt has 2 different technologies that unsurprisingly confused the bot. Storm Defender is WPB, while Rain Defender is softshell with DWR, like this jacket which might interest you https://www.carhartt.com/product/106438/galesburg-softshell-jacket

[Stephen Seeber]

I found myself on a similar search for a jacket for high-output activities such as skinning, biking in cold weather, and hiking the local mountains. This jacket requires sufficient air permeability to remove moisture vapor. I looked at all the soft shells I could purchase, test for air permeability, and return in Boulder, CO, which has an inordinate number of outdoor retailers. None of the soft shells had adequate air permeability for this task. Knit jackets used to be popular for cycling and Nordic skiing and this is what you want. I use a Rapha Core Thermal. Its air permeability is 44 CFM/Ft2. I treated it with Nikwax to make it hydrophobic. You want highly permeable layering underneath it for the system to work while providing warmth. It is very frustrating that most cycling, Nordic, and Skimo clothing manufacturers have moved away from this type of clothing in favor of wind-blocking fabrics, but if you look around, you can still find what you are looking for. At slow speed activities such as skinning and hiking you must control the warmth of your underlayers carefully because air penetration will be limited. For biking at 20 mph in 25-45F temps, you can finish a hard effort with nearly no trapped moisture in your layers and this is no small feat.

[Jerry Adams]

For high output activities you need very little insulation to stay warm

Even a base layer and any jacket may be more than you need, so you’ll sweat

[Mark Verber]

You might be able to find one of the classic stretch woven soft shells on the used market at a reasonable price.  I just checked around and found a few Cloudveil Serendipity for less than $50. You could also look for Marmot ATV.

[Haakon R]

I dropped out for a minute, was busy breaking my back on a ski backpacking trip. My back is noticeably better now, so I think I’ll recover :)

Thanks for your suggestion, Stephen. Never heard of that brand so at first I thought it might be some exotic stuff that’s unobtainable here in Norway – like so much of the gear discussed here. But that definitively wasn’t the case. Readily available at online bike stores. On sale even.
I didn’t get one though. But I might look into it later. It is possible that the material is very suitable for my use case, but for the intended use it was lacking in features that I prefer to have. The definitive show stopper was no hood.

[Haakon R]

 I just checked around and found a few Cloudveil Serendipity for less than $50. You could also look for Marmot ATV

It’s a bit ironic. I  used to prefer my softshells (or basically all layers except my outer shell layer) without a hood, for easier layering. I remember dismissing so many promising designs back in the day, just because they didn’t come in a hoodless version. And now I have flipped. A total 180, I want every jacket (and even mid layers) that at any point might serve as the outermost layer, to feature a hood.

How life changes you :) So the suggested jackets are very close to what I’m looking for, sans the missing hood. And probably not too different from my Mammut New Age jacket in Dryskin Extreme. It was my absolute favorite softshell for many years. It’s still in workable shape, but it’s getting a bit long in the tooth and the missing hood is sadly a noticeable absence.

All that to say, I did order a Black Diamond Dawn Patrol to see if it could work. And I think it just might. It’s hard to determine if they still use Schoeller fabrics, but the fabric does feel suitable for the intended use so I’m willing to give it a try. And taking into account that the fit was pretty much spot on for my not so average build, it’s hard to imagine that investing more time and money into this quest will yield anything but diminishing returns.

Thanks for all the input. I might do a follow up when my back has fully recovered and I’ve had some relevant experience with the Dawn Patrol jacket.

And sorry for the long windedness. Been offline for too long :)

[Mark Verber]

Look forward to your update.  Wish you a speedy recovery.

Schoeller was really hurt by the pandemic… and it seems like several manufacturers have caught up to them.

I also have flip-flopped on hoods over the years. These days I mostly prefer hoods (100% prefer for backpacking), but I use my clothing for all sorts of activities, and hoods sometimes get in the way.

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