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Layering for PNW – Need to cut weight


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  • #3649370
    Nicholas R
    BPL Member

    @nickrebo

    I have been torn in regards to the appropriate torso layering system for 3 season backpacking in the PNW.  I have struggled to find the minimum necessary pieces to meet my needs and save weight in the pack.

    I do tend to run quite hot, so prefer to have just my next of skin layer while moving.

    Below, I’ll outline each piece I own and their intended use.  Then perhaps you could recommend any specific changes.  Likely not applicable, so didn’t include below, but I also have Smartwool 150 and 250 base layers (for winter objectives).

    Patagonia Sun Stretch Shirt. 5.6 oz.  My base and only layer for warmer conditions. Or I’ll wear capilene cool hoody.

    Patagonia Nano Air Hoody.  12.2 Oz. Breathable mid layer for hiking in colder weather.  Unfortunately, I overheat in this very quickly in all but the very coldest conditions, and I regret not getting the nano air light, which is now discontinued.  I am thinking a Patagonia R1 may be a better option that allows maximum breathability for most cool conditions.

    Patagonia Houdini. 3.7 Oz. Wind Shirt and light protection against rain.  If light precip or wind picks up, throw this on over my base layer.  I’ve found my gamma lt pants with their DWR coating to handle a decent amount of rain without wetting out.  Was hoping the Houdini may do the same.

    Arcteryx Beta AR. 16 Oz. Heavy rain/wind jacket.  I got this last year with mountaineering objectives in mind.  It is likely overkill for the vast majority of 3 season backpacking pursuits.  Maybe an OR Helium jacket would be a lighter weight solution to rain protection?

    Mountain Hardware Ghost Whisperer Hooded. 8.3 Oz. Down insulation for sleeping, using as a pillow, hanging out around camp.

    Alternatives options compared to current 45.8 Oz situation:

    A) Replace Houdini with OR Helium, and leave the Beta AR at home. Saves 13.3 Oz.

    B) Forego Houdini.  Keep Beta AR.  Saves 3.7 Oz.

    • Sun stretch shirt, Nano air hoody, Beta AR, Ghost Whisperer.

    C) Replace Nano air hoody with R1, replace Houdini with OR Helium, Leave Beta AR at home. Saves 12.8 Oz.

    • Sun stretch shirt, R1, Helium, Ghost Whisperer

    D) ????

    #3649410
    Aaron
    BPL Member

    @aaronmcd

    I’m in Norcal and also trying to figure out what works. I discovered my nano air was too light to go alone with a medium base layer. I like fleece for moving, and I do warm up pretty quick while moving. Here is what I did last year, but the middle layers are a bit heavy/bulky for what they do.
    Base layer – Fleece – nano puffOR Helium.

    I’ve used the Helium for rain protection (hiking, biking, at camp) and wind protection on various occasions (mainly chilling at camp). I sized up so I just purchased a Marmot Bantamweight rain jacket. Similar weight to the Helium but it has pockets! Hasn’t arrived yet, got it as my REI Outlet 20% off item.

    I wasn’t happy with the lack of warmth in the nano puff or bulk and heft of a typical midweight fleece, although I must say the Kyanite is lovely for wearing around town, colder day hikes, and various other shenanigans that don’t include trying to squeeze room in a stuffed pack for a couple beers.

    I just purchased the Arc’teryx Delta LT zip neck, and the Cerium LT with hood as an inactive insulation layer. I may also bring my midweight base layer if I might be cold hiking. I’m thinking go with this:

    Short sleeve poly – long sleeve midweight base – Delta LT – Cerium LT – Bantamweight
    The short sleeve is mainly to help keep stuff clean. Not really needed unless it’s really warm out, but it’s nice to have a bit of a sweat barrier, and I can use it as a wash cloth in the evening.

    #3649413
    Jeffs Eleven
    BPL Member

    @woodenwizard

    Locale: NePo

    Its too subjective for anyone else to answer your theories but you. I’m not dismissing your questions but it is a personal thing. One trip may be lower 60’s and dry the whole time. The next trip will be lower 70’s and rainy. How hot do you run? Are you moving when it’s raining or is it a night rain and you can hide in your tent?  Is the hike steep uphill during the rain?
    Im just trying to convey that there are too many nuances to having someone else pick your clothes for some theoretical trip/ weather.
    At some point You’re just gonna have to try stuff and know how it works for you then check the weather for each trip and pack accordingly.

    Nobody knows your body better than you. And each hike/ weather day can be different. Use this site to learn the science/ mechanics of textiles and then, in my experience, its a bunch of trial and error till you can look at the forecast, consider the hike that you are about to go on and pack what right for that exact situation.

    Personally I go light hard shells (I have a Helium) I carry hard shell pants to cut the wind. I always carry a thorium jacket cause I get cold… unless it’s peak summer days in a hotter area And I’ll carry a down vest. Peak summer and high elevation I carry the thorium.  Spring and fall I carry a beta lt (which I am too fat for, but that’s a different thread) cause it may rain the whole time. Some spring days I carry a soft shell cause its gonna be bluebird.
    …too many situations to just have one answer.

    #3649427
    Michael E
    BPL Member

    @michael-e

    Locale: SoCal

    Have you considered Alpha Direct as a highly breathable mid layer option? My Macpac Nitro Hoody is 90g alpha and weighs 5 ounces.

    #3649901
    kevperro .
    BPL Member

    @kevperro

    Locale: Washington State

    I hike year-round in the Cascades.   Every weekend rain, snow or shine.    Excluding my puffy, I don’t think I have $300 in my entire setup and I have a very light setup.

    A lot depends on where/how you hike so you have to develop your own system.    And the PNW has a vast array of weather and terrain.    But I’d argue you don’t need to spend a lot of money to figure it out.

    While under movement you don’t need a lot of clothing.    You won’t be wearing multiple layers while under movement because you are exerting and your body heat is sufficient to keep you warm.   I snowshoe in shorts, gaiters and a t-shirt as long as there isn’t much wind.    I’d throw on a light jacket if I needed wind protection.

    I have my arsenal down to:

    *Inexpensive t-shirt – any synthetic will do, and cotton in the summer.   I’d buy it based upon fit and comfort rather than weight.

    *Inexpensive synthetic long-sleeve super lightweight.   I wear this only in the winter when it is cold and wet because I prefer it under a rain jacket if I need to wear one.    I have a smartwool long sleeve that is much too warm for hiking.   It is camp gear for me.

    *Inexpensive 100W fleece.   I’ve tried multiple expensive versions and you know what….. I still like my work supplied Eddie Buer 100W fleece jacket.   It is warm when wet, drys quickly, doesn’t hold a stink and is reasonable in weight.    It has a huge comfort zone.   I’ve hiked with it downhill, and used it snowshoeing.   I prefer a jacket without a hood and I use a polartech sock cap, and carry a full-faced bachlava (from skiing) that is ultralight but adds tons of warmth because it completely encapsulates my face, neck etc..etc. and can be worn under everything else.   It is just a couple ounces and stays in my pack all year.

    * Inexpensive shell.    I use DryDucks because it is lightweight, inexpensive, and I like how the material feels against my skin.   It fits loose enough that it doesn’t bind.   Yes it rips easily but it is far cheaper to replace and it spends 98% of the time in my pack.   I hike in the rain without a jacket if I’m warm.   I view rain jackets as a mechanism to retain warmth, not to keep me dry.    If I’m climbing a mountain I’m typically warm and sweating so getting wet from the misty rain we get just keeps me cooler.   I wear a baseball cap to keep my glasses dry.

    *Running shorts

    *Gaiters –  Gaitors are a necessity for snow travel.    I  find that add warmth and keep my feet dryer longer.    If you don’t do snow travel you don’t need them.

    * Thick rag wool socks.   I’m unsophisticated if you haven’t figured that out.    I don’t like thin socks.     I carry an extra set in my pack in winter.   In the summer wet thick wool socks work just as well as dry wool socks.   My philosophy on footwear is much the same.    I wear non-waterproof boots and I just accept that my feet will be wet at times.   It really doesn’t bother me so I see no need to change.   I’d rather have boots that dry quickly than boots that stay dry until… they don’t.    They all eventually get wet.   They have big holes in them where your feet go in so they will get wet.   Embrace the inevitable.

    *Hands – I find my hands are a critical to my comfort.   I carry cheap disposable latex gloves for shoulder season wet travel.   My hands may get pruned but they generally stay warm even in prolonged rain.   That doesn’t work for my wife so YMMV.    I carry fleece gloves for camp.   I’ve worn them snowshoeing and hiking if my hands are cold for some other reason.   I use trekking poles so my hands are always active when I’m under movement.

    ———————————————

    Camp Wear:

    *Long underwear – wool – take your pick because you don’t need high-performance in camp.  Tops + Bottoms.   I have a set in my pack at all times, even summer.   You never know when the unexpected will happen.

    *Puffy-  I splurged on this and got a custom jacket made to my specifications.   It is ultr-light at about 10-ounces with hood, and big pockets.    I rarely use it but it is great as an extra layer in camp or extra sleeping warmth to supplement a sleeping system.

    *I don’t even own a set of rain pants right now.   The Dry ducks ones will rip apart in short order.   They are good for camp only.    I tried a skirt but to be honest I don’t really like it.   I’ve not yet found a leg covering that I like.   In winter I’ll wear lightweight synthetic long underwear under my shorts and along with gaiters it works for me.    I don’t give a damn what I look like.

    I’d say experimentation is more valuable than spending money on big-ticket names.    You won’t know what works for you until you try it and you could spend thousands of dollars playing around with brand named gear or you can just use common sense and try solutions that have worked for other people for decades.

     

     

     

    #3649906
    Robert Spencer
    BPL Member

    @bspencer

    Locale: Sierras of CA and deserts of Utah

    @michael-e

    Just curious how you got that Macpac top since it appears they don’t ship to the US?

    I am not aware of  a super simple, super lightweight (5-6 oz.) layer using Alpha Direct that is similar to this bare-bones option.  Not interested in extra features and weight if the plan is to pair it with a hardshell or wind jacket most of the time.

    #3649930
    Link .
    BPL Member

    @annapurna

    Robert if you ever go to Gear swap BPL member idownman has been shipping them to members here (including me) if you tell him what size you want

    FS: MACPAC NITRO ALPHA POLARTEC FLEECES  .

    MACPAC NITRO ALPHA – ROUND 2 .

     

    #3649933
    Aaron
    BPL Member

    @aaronmcd

    That Macpac looks nice if it didn’t have the hood. Also what’s up with those mini pockets? I got the Delta LT and it has a similar tiny pocket on the arm. It’s too small for my ecig. What could I possibly want to use it for? It seems a lot of outdoor brand fleeces have them.

    #3649966
    Mark Verber
    BPL Member

    @verber

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    These days I am in NoCal and don’t face lots of rain… but in the past I did.  Like @kevperro, I think of rain gear for warmth, not dry, and I run hot.

    When dry, I found Patagonia Cap4 (thermal weight now) + a montbell wind shirt (as needed) is pretty much perfect for me 25-55F and usable 5-10F on either end of that range.  Using featherweight base + <=100wt fleece (like montbell chameece fleece)  performs similarly to the Cap4.

    Raining in >50F I hike in a synthetic base and get wet.  If I am getting cold I speed up.

    Raining <50F Cap4 + breathable shell.  At 50F I will be sweating even if it’s just a wind shirt, rain shells are worse. I just accept I am going to be wet from sweat rather than from rain, but I will be warm. When it goes to be below 40F or so, Cap4 + shell is quite comfortable.

    I have tried using a wind shirt in light rain… but that was pretty useless.  I have found that the same fabric which seemed to be pretty effective in light rain for my pants seems less effective as a shirt/jacket. that said,  wind shirt is totally worth the weight!  I have tried to use a rain shell as a wind shirt, even the best today (gore shakedry like ArcTeryx Norvan SL) doesn’t compare to the breathability of a good wind shirt, nor have I found ponchos any better than a rain shell. I have tried the British soft-shell pile+shell (pertex, EPIC, light stretch woven like BD Alpine Start).  This worked great if facing high abrasion conditions, but generally I prefer a base + rain shell.

    So… what would I recommend?

    If you nano air is too warm, then find something lighter. <=100wt fleece can be cheap, effective and slightly lighter. If your trips are constantly cooler, give up on a base + mid-layer.  Go with a warmer base like Cap4/thermal weight, save your mid layer for extended breaks / camp.

    Use a shell (wind when dry, rain when raining) to keep warm and dry-ish. There are certainly a number of rain jackets which are <= 1/2 the weight of your beta ar. decide how much you want to spend.  dri ducks is the price performance sweet spot (bring duct tape for repairs), gore shakedry is the best performance if you don’t think about cost, and there are countless options between those.

    Keep your mid for extended breaks and camp.

    So:

    keep your light base, drop your nano air, add cap4 / or <100wt fleece, keep houdini, replace beta ar with lighter rain shell, keep your mh ghost whisper.

    My generic thoughts on clothing https://verber.com/clothing/

    #3649967
    Ross Bleakney
    BPL Member

    @rossbleakney

    Locale: Cascades

    I would start by replacing the rain jacket. This is the one I own: http://ultralightinsights.blogspot.com/2016/04/gear-review-berghaus-vapourlight-hyper.html. That would be a savings of about 13 ounces. You will be comfortable wearing that over the Nano Air Hoody in a typical (cold, wet) Northwest rain storm.

    I would be tempted to get rid of the Ghost Whisperer. Or rather, considering it a late season addition. Layering that over the Nano Hoody means you are toasty warm even if you are making a meal and the wind/snow starts blowing. (Assuming you have a good hat and gloves, of course). But midsummer, it is overkill, in my opinion. The Nano Hoody does the same thing.

    It sounds like you are beating yourself up over the Nano Air Hoody. Don’t. Yes, it is a bit too warm to hike in most of the time, but whatever. Think of it like a rain jacket — most of the time, you don’t use it. But when you want it, it’s great. It is only a couple ounces more than the lightest synthetic puffy, and those ounces are warmth. You could use fleece, but fleece — as wonderful as it is — is quite heavy for the amount of warmth. That is why I love fleece for day hiking, but leave it at home when backpacking. Anyway, the windshirt should help for “in between” weather, when it is a bit too chilly for nothing but the shirt, but too warm for the puffy jacket. A windshirt over a long sleeve button down will provide plenty of warmth. Likewise, on those rare occasions when it warm and wet, a rain jacket over the sun shirt and wind shirt will be fine. A little clammy at worse, but still fine.

    #3649973
    Mike M
    BPL Member

    @mtwarden

    Locale: Montana

    I’d never forego my windshirt; easily the most versatile piece of clothing I own and at under 4 oz, even more so

    16 oz is heavy for rain jacket for backpacking, many options in less than half that weight; save the 16 oz one for mountaineering- savings 8-10 oz

    the Nano Light is definitely more of a cold weather active layer; don’t see how it would fit in well outside of cold weather- trade it for a lighter active layer- savings ~ 6 oz

    that’s a pound savings with two changes

    the two items you already have obviously are still going to be useful, just not for the warmer 1/2 the year or so

     

    #3649975
    John Brown
    Spectator

    @johnbrown2005

    Locale: Portland, OR

    I live in the PNW. I get a lot of mileage out of this combo;

    1. Very light merino or synthetic baselayer
    2. R1 Fleece Hoody
    3. Houdini
    4. Warm hat

    Add midweight down puffy and/or rain gear based on expected temps and precip.

    Sometimes I wear a sun hoody as bass layer.

    Simple, versatile, wide range.

    #3649977
    Nicholas R
    BPL Member

    @nickrebo

    Thanks to everyone for the excellent recommendations.

    Below is my modified list for **most** 3 season backpacking here in the PNW:

    • Active Midlayer: Patagonia Capilene Thermal Weight Hoody (7.2 oz)
    • Wind Shirt: Patagonia Houdini Air Hoody (4.1 oz)
    • Rain Jacket: OR Helium (6.3 oz)
    • Puffy: Mountain Hardware Ghost Whisperer 2 Hoody
    • Total weight: 25.9 oz

    If it’s expected to be particularly warm and dry, I may forego the midlayer and/or wind shirt, saving 4.1-11.3 oz.

    If it’s expected to be particularly cold or wet, I may bring the Beta AR, and not the Helium, adding 10 oz.

    Winter list would be a different matter, so not addressing that here.

    Seem like a good modification from the list in the original post?

    #3649978
    Mike M
    BPL Member

    @mtwarden

    Locale: Montana

    yeah looks good :)

     

    the thermal weight also makes a great base layer in very cold conditions- very versatile piece!

    #3649979
    John Brown
    Spectator

    @johnbrown2005

    Locale: Portland, OR

    Yes, nice combo. agree re versatility of Cap thermalweight

    #3649986
    Michael E
    BPL Member

    @michael-e

    Locale: SoCal

    Just curious how you got that Macpac top since it appears they don’t ship to the US?

    From BPL idownman. He ships them from Australia.

    I am not aware of  a super simple, super lightweight (5-6 oz.) layer using Alpha Direct that is similar to this bare-bones option.  Not interested in extra features and weight if the plan is to pair it with a hardshell or wind jacket most of the time.

    There is a guy on reddit that makes something similar. The medium is 3.4 ounces. No chest pocket and has a sorta balaclava style hood different from Macpac.

    #3649989
    Michael E
    BPL Member

    @michael-e

    Locale: SoCal

    That Macpac looks nice if it didn’t have the hood. Also what’s up with those mini pockets? I got the Delta LT and it has a similar tiny pocket on the arm. It’s too small for my ecig. What could I possibly want to use it for? It seems a lot of outdoor brand fleeces have them.

    Love the hood, can put it up for extra warmth when needed. Doesn’t need the chest pocket, maybe just there as a space for branding. I sometimes put keys, cards, sun clips in there.

    #3649999
    Aaron
    BPL Member

    @aaronmcd

    Love the hood, can put it up for extra warmth when needed. Doesn’t need the chest pocket, maybe just there as a space for branding. I sometimes put keys, cards, sun clips in there.

    Ah I typically wear a smartwool beanie everywhere. The beanie is nice cuz I don’t need to put on a hoodie for head warmth. Also been growing out my hair and hoods are kinda difficult with so much hair. I do like a full hood when it’s particularly windy and cold though. Might give the Reddit guy’s hoodie a try. Lighter and cheaper with no weird pocket. But it shouldn’t be that much lighter unless the material is a good bit lighter. Might just be too light.

    #3650014
    Michael E
    BPL Member

    @michael-e

    Locale: SoCal

    But it shouldn’t be that much lighter unless the material is a good bit lighter. Might just be too light.

    The Nitro is 90g Alpha, looks like he is using 85g and 61g depending on color. Should be lighter, though looks like some extra material for that balaclava type hood. I have a piece (Marmot Alpha) that’s 60g alpha direct, but it’s paired with Pertex Quantum Air face fabric. The 60g alpha is quite thin and airy.

    #3650902
    A Hardwick
    BPL Member

    @threewindows

    RE: Macpac nitro, I bought a womens one (sz 14 I believe) as they do not come with the chest pocket, and cut the hood off. It weighs 98g and is useful year round as either a baselayer (winter) or UL midlayer.

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