Insulating Layer when stopped

I think base layer, fleece, and 800 fill down would be more then plenty.. Add rain shell if serious wind or rain, but at that point if I was not hiking I would probably be tucked in my quilt for the night. I also think at 3 ounces or 4.2 ounces.. Meh’. I get it, its a 1.2 ounce difference.. Hood or not.. which would you prefer?  I like a hood when its cold out so I would probably swallow the 1.2 ounces and take the hoody. 32 lbs is about my full out winter gear snow storm load out with snowshoes and shovel on my pack. How much food and consumables is in there??

<p style=”text-align: left;”>@dirtbag just to clarify it’s 1.2 oz of fill difference.  So more fill of higher loft down.</p>
The weight difference of hoodys is 13.75 oz for the Magma vs 8.8 oz for the Ghost whisperer, about 5 oz difference.

Lol.. derrr. That makes sense, haha.. my mind was wandering. I think I would still opt for the hoody.. and try to cut the weight somewhere else. Thats just me. Some people prefer no hoods. Also depends on the actual temperatures which then you can decide the day before your trip in all reality. But I think you would be warm enough without the hoody even down to 19°.. so long as you have a hat to cover your head/ears.

I was in Death Valley in a December. Nighttime lows were around 46 degrees, per my thermometer. No wind. My group was huddled around a propane heater and fire in the evenings. The days really didn’t get much warmer the 56 degrees. The air just sucked the heat out of you.
Standing around and being inactive around camp I was super chilled wearing my base layer shirt, Peloton 97, Mont-Bell plasma 1000 parka, fleece neck buff, beanie  and gloves.
I often wonder when people throw out temps how accurate they are cause I was dang cold several nights in a row with this set up.
I’ve contemplated adding a beefier jacket to my gear as the Plasma really wasn’t as warm as I think it should be. The Ghost Whisper from what I hear is not as warm as the plasma. I’d rather be too warm then cold cause man that really sucks.

I’d rather be too warm then cold cause man that really sucks.

^ That.  Early on I would stand around shivering and kicking myself when I failed to bring the “warm gear” because I wanted the lightest pack possible.  Finally learned that comfort is worth the extra couple of ounces.

If a cold weather trip involves time spent in camp, your sleeping pad, bag/quilt and clothing should not be skimped on.  Save the weight somewhere else.  Or just accept that your cold weather load is going to be heavier than your warmer weather load.

I’ll also echo the comments above. a good (that is, toasty warm) down puffy is worth its weight in gold.

The GW has 3oz of 800 fill = 2400 cuin fill volume

The REI 850 has 4.2oz of 850 = 3570 cuin fill volume

So the REI has 50% more down than the GW. Personally I found the GW cold at around 45* and completely inadequate as a static layer. I dislike that jacket a lot due to its horrible Price:Warmth ratio (As a better alternative, the cumulus Primelite pullover weighs less (~6.5oz), costs less ($~200), and has more fill (~2700cuin), though it doesnt have a hood or pockets unfortunately)

So for me, if 19 degree mornings are true, a GW would be tooooootally inadequate to keep me comfortable. At 20* I am toasty warm in my 120 merino base layer, Macpac nitro (Alpha 90gsm), Montbell Plasma 1k parka (3400cuin fill), and my windshell over the plasma (the baffle pattern on the P1k sucks contrary to MB’s claims), plus a beanie, peloton97 buff, gloves, and motbell down pants because warm legs are the best. (Though I’ve never heard of a true UL’er doing the down pants, they’re really great). I am a wuss in the cold and hate being cold. I hike with a group and we’re around camp for hours at night, so its not like I hike until exhaustion then crawl in a bivy. I want to be comfortable at camp for hours, static, below freezing and I am!

So personally, I would go for the REI 850 no question. If you are super warm, well acclimated to cold, or intend to hike all day then go to bed immediately the GW may work for you. If you run cold at rest, are from a warm climate, or want any comfortable time outside your bag in the evenings, the REI is the winner by far.

Down has the lightest warmth to weight ratio by far. I bring a beefier down jacket and leave a layer behind. This combo can be lighter and warmer than bringing more layers and lightweight down jacket.

by the way there can be a sketchy snow/ice stretch on the way up to Dusy Basin.

With gloves and a beanie, the shirt/fleece/down should be fine. Your own cold tolerance counts too. If it’s that cold, I would be in my sleeping bag ASAP.

You can bundle in your bag or quilt too, especially for breakfast.

Good incentive to get packed up and walking!

Marcus – I’m with you on the Montbell down pants. You wouldn’t think 2 oz of down would be very warm but I l-o-v-e them!  And I couldn’t give a rat’s patootie about whether someone considers me “UL”…I’m warm and comfortable.

If the OP meant the Dusy Basin, the altitude is over 10,000 feet — a partial vacuum with less air to cool one. Probably about 70% of sea level. If 69 degrees is taken as a comfortable temperature, 19 is a 50 degree differential. 50 x .7 =35, so treat 19 as a sea level 34 degrees, and plan the needed insulation accordingly.

Christopher, I think Marcus and others have touched on a key question: Do you want to hang out around camp or do you hike then get in your quilt/bag quickly?

good analysis Marco.  Except maybe even the REI jacket is too cool, but that depends on the individual.

That is really interesting Steve, I hadn’t thought about that before but that makes sense.  I will have to look at my real world experience to see If I can confirm.

It is well known that usually, the temperature decreases with altitude, but this cancels that out.

Steve that is very interesting and think I’ve noticed similar but hard to get a bead living at sea level. Don’t get to test the theory. Just know that X temp here feels colder than X temp at altitude out west. I thought maybe the difference was due to the typically heavy moisture load here at windy sea level. I guess that would also tend to ‘thicken’ the air? So more heat sink to suck up body heat?

I’ve been eyeing those montbell down pants for years. This pretty much confirms. THX.

So the low temp usually occurs just a little after sunrise. The evening temps up to a few hours after dark are usually significantly above the low and using 19 as a low in typical conditions the temp say 90 minutes after sunset will possibly be above freezing. Morning is the problem but then you should be moving. That said I completely agree with the advice above. Don’t skimp on warmth in freezing temps. As the old adage goes prepare for the worst hope for the best. The youknowhat hits the fan for whatever reason you don’t want to be cold on top of it.

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Started this thread with he overall goal of maybe saving weight…looks like I will be adding some down pants.</p>

A possible low of 19°F overnight does not warrant carrying down pants! I think at that point you will be tucked in your quilt/sleeping bag anyway. If it was winter and consistent temperature was in the mid to low teens during the days and nights then I would consider down pants. My last 2 trips I went on I carried my down pants. I only used them 1 time.. In the morning, Pharoah Lake Wilderness, it was 15° below 0!! I threw my down pants on when I crawled out of my bivy, in the snow.. To pack up my gear.. Then took them off when I was ready to hike. So I wore them for about 20 minutes total. My last trip in the Catskills it was a blizzard, 8 – 12 inches of snow,  55mph winds and temperature was at 0°F and below with the wind chill.. I had my down pants and did not use them at all.

So I am just saying,  A possible low of 19° overnight, and mid 50s during the day.. NO way would I bring down pantS!!

@dirtbag – yeah, but you are a bada** who hikes out into blizzards and hammocks on the roof of buildings in Manhattan. Soft squishy guys like me wear down pants :)

Lol @ JCH!! Funny. It really does come down to ones cold tolerance. Its kind of a tough question to ask so many others.. “Will I be warm”.

OBX Hiker,

I worked out the altitude effect to explain my experience living at sea level and hiking at 5k+ in the Cascades. I had read some of the original studies on wind chill and had noted at the time that altitude was ignored. My experiences led me to believe the oversight was important. Since (1) the molecules available must determine the extent winds chill,  and (2) the molecule density is proportional to air pressure, the trick to applying that fact was to apply an air pressure factor to the original methodology used in calculating wind chill.

Christopher,

The temperature may feel as though it is above freezing, but gear cold soaks and water freezes. Dry socks and a bit of motion warms up shoes usually, but hand protection should be part of your planning. As far as legs go, WPB rain pants help in both wind and cold over even a thin layer. Down pants are overkill for summer, but that first move toward warmer legs seems to translate into significantly less insulation needed for the upper body.

“Its kind of a tough question to ask so many others.. “Will I be warm”.”

That’s precisely the issue.  We can give our advice, and that is based on our experience.  Everyone is different and each of us has to figure out the specifics of what gear is needed for what conditions ourselves based on personal experience.  There are however some general rules of behavior that seem to apply to most people:

One thing I have found is that it is important if possible to avoid becoming cold in the first place, as it is much harder to warm up than to stay warm.  When the sun goes down and/or I stop hiking, I put on all the warm clothes I think I will need before going to bed.  It is easier to vent if you are a little too warm than put on cold insulation after you feel yourself getting chilled.

Thank You Steve!

“My experiences led me to believe the oversight was important. Since (1) the molecules available must determine the extent winds chill,  and (2) the molecule density is proportional to air pressure, the trick to applying that fact was to apply an air pressure factor to the original methodology used in calculating wind chill.”

I wish I had a better grounding in Physical Sciences other than the one high school course.

It seems as well that the humidity level at sea level would also have a pronounced affect on the molecular density and hence the displacement?  or other suitable term, of core temperature. I.E the reason people die from 55 degree water much more quickly than from 55 degree air. And the problems with 55 degree air are a magnitude worse when you’re wet like you fell in the river?  So really it’s all a problem with the rate of dispersal of core temp like those ‘we’ are trying to solve with the layering articles and discussions. Maybe one day we’ll have a more detailed ‘index’ like the wind chill index that takes all these factors like elevation and atmospheric moisture into consideration. Maybe complex math but nothing a typical PC shouldn’t be able to handle in a flash.

And JCH and Dirtbag as you guys have noted in ‘normal’ seasonal weather with some typical diurnal warming that short period in the morning between getting out of bed and getting moving is the problem. Just stay in the bag until about noon. Problem solved ;)  Or get up and climb to  some local elevated vantage point with your coffee to enjoy the morning view or scout the route ahead. Whatever move.

So yeah Chris there’s a difference between a short small comfort problem and a dangerously cold one. HYOH but don’t let the tail wag the dog. If I was into hanging out and taking my time in the morning as I often am I might take the pants. If I had a schedule that required covering a certain distance and there was a long space between resupply, factors like that; I might not.

Reading through all the comments, you can really see how different we are in terms of cold tolerance. At 40F my husband is in shorts and a tshirt, and I’ve got gloves and a hat on! I bought some Montbell down pants a few years ago on Gear swap and use them for winter trips when it will get to about 10-15F. At 20F I’d be way too warm in them. And only use them for camp at any temp; moving would make them too warm. But I do love them and they’re super light, nice to have in the pack “just in case.”

In winter down to about 0F I have an Enlightened Equipment torrid jacket in my pack, which I put on when stopped. Below 0F I go with a weightier down jacket, either my Rab or an LLbean parka, and down mittens. I can’t use any of that when hiking or skiing, just heats up too much. For camping I’d bring the heavier stuff, but also wouldn’t spend much time hanging out at camp, unless there was a bonfire.

It’s kind of crazy how much gear I have for very specific uses. But I don’t buy doodads for the house, or fashionable clothes for work, so I guess that’s how I spend my extra.

It would have to be VERY cold for me to hike in the Montbell down pants…probably below zero. Even with only 2oz of fill they are really just for in camp.  I can’t even wear a 150 wt merino baselayer under my pants when hiking above 25F. Hiking and hanging around in camp are, for me, 2 entirely different scenarios…were I not going to “hang out in camp” I might skip the down pants altogether…that said, they really increase the warmth of your bag/quilt when worn sleeping.

Lastly, as many here know I’m sure, your metabolism slows with age and you get cold more easily.  I need significantly more insulation now than I did 15 years ago.

Cold acclimation (or lack thereof) has been the major factor in my becoming a total wuss and loving down pants.

Originally I’m from Minnesota where the first 35F/1C spring day we were out in shorts and T shirts enjoying the sun. I spent over 30 years there. Then I moved to southern california where I have to try pretty hard to find temps under 40F within a few hours of me (basically have to go to the southern sierra’s to find ‘real’ cold.). I havent experienced a temp below 15*F in over 3 years, although I’ve camped 5 nights this winter below 27F and many below 35.

My icy shell has totally melted and I now chill much more easily, thus lots of UL down gear. I was listening to Matt Graham’s book and he said “It was 20* in a blizzard but I was warm in my wool shirt and shorts…”. I was thinking the whole time, this sounds miserable! :) so clearly acclimation can help with your perception of warm or cold. Mine has noticeably skewed upward over a couple years.

One thing I only recently started to appreciate – you are only as warm as your coldest part. I find I feel warmer in my core when my extremities are also warm (hands, feet, arms, legs) even though Im sure having cold feet does not appreciably affect my core temp in the least.

As for my beloved down pants, they are strictly for static hanging around camp in temps near freezing or lower. I dont know how cold it would have to be to use them while moving, but really cold. Probably below 0F. I overheat in them at 25* just packing up camp.

They add a lot of versatility in staying warm though, I can bring my Primelite (6oz) + down pants (7oz) + base layer (a given) + Macpac nitro (5oz) and I’m good in a wide variety of conditions down to the high 20’s for about 1lb.

Again, I’ve become a really big wuss to cold so take my down-hype for what its worth. I read lots of gear lists of people that say “I have a GW and thermal bottoms and I’m good to 20*”. Thats not me, but maybe its you?