Incessantly annoying pillow off my pad problem….with solution!

[DGoggins]

see next post for more info

[DGoggins]

Trying to perfect my quilt setup….so this is kind of a companion thread to Incessantly annoying quilt drawstring in face problem.

So, I use a big sky dreamsleeper pillow (best pillow by the way….its flexible which greatly increases comfort, large, among the lightest, and fairly cheap), normally combined with my buff (multiuse). I use exped pads normally.

But….one drawback to using a quilt is that the pillow, instead of corralled in the sleeping bag’s hood (the dreamsleeper is almost too big for a hood anyway), is loose. So everytime I move, or flip my body over to the other side, the pillow normally falls off and I have to grab it and reposition it. During the night I’m always double checking that its in the right place too…it just adds to not sleeping well.

Plenty of users have offered suggestions….such as using a tshirt and slipping the pillow and pad into the bottom of it (I don’t carry a tshirt though), or putting your shoes in front of your pad (I wouldn’t put dirty shoes inside my duplex), or taping velcro to the pad and pillow (it wouldn’t work with the way the buff slips over the pillow and I like having a hand underneath the pillow during the night sometimes too which I couldn’t with velcro).

Bob Moulder has a decent setup where he has an elastic webbing loop around his pad and pillow ->

This works…b/c his exped pillow has tabs on the side where he can slip webbing through, and his neoair’s baffles are horizontal, so there is less chance of the webbing slipping “up” during the night (the baffles corral it a bit). You could use a buff with this system too.

I normally use exped mats, and I first tried tying my buff to the pad with some cordage through the buff “tunnel”, but the cordage slips up too easily. Especially with a hyperlite…the taper really kills it.

So…I was about to buy zpacks 2.5″ stick on loops ->

But didn’t want to pay $5 shipping for a few bucks of material….so I made my own. I first tried using clear-white zpacks cuben fiber repair tape….but that was .31oz and it wasn’t strong enough to handle the stitching when pulled. I also tried using clear tenacious tape, but it was worse than the cuben tape.

Thankfully I had some 1″ zpacks .74oz cuben repair tape, and that seems to hold the stitching just fine. I made it about 1.5″ long, and then stuck them onto the pad at an angle.

I should have first curved the corners of the tape though….

I then took an EE elastic webbing loop, and cut it in half, and put two male adjustable connectors on, facing out. This way…I can adjust the tension of the webbing, and the male connectors work great to slip through the loop and then catch.

So here is the system in total ->

I used elastic webbing, b/c it holds really well in the EE connectors (EE used to use grosgrain ribbon but it slips too easily in it), and b/c the elastic will put less stress on my stick on loops when pulled. With this system I can easily tuck a hand under the pillow ->

And….the pillow stays on no matter how I move, or if the pad is upside down!

So…..now I just need to use it a bunch this season. I am mainly worried about the size of the stick on tape….it might not be enough to hold long term. I’m not worried about the .74oz cuben as much….but if the tape comes off, I would need to buy the zpacks “5.25” x 13.5″ Large Repair Patch / Reinforcement”, cut to about 2.5″ x 2.5″ and use that. That is also made of 1.43oz cuben so no issues with stitching.

This mod adds .2oz (that is how much the elastic strap weighs)…but hopefully will bring me more worry free sleeping.

I also am thinking about doing the same with the actual EE quilt’s straps (cutting them in half and slipping them through taped on loops), so eliminate the possibility of the EE loop straps rotating around the pad (and thus moving the quilt connection points and thus giving the possibility of a draft), but I think I would definitely use a larger stick on loop. It would save on weight too (I estimate .24oz).

[David Thomas]

Definitely better than stapling it on!

I really like your idea about securing the edges of the quilt to the edges of the pad.  Either with the sticky-patch & loop like you used, or possibly sewing the loop directly to the outer edge of the pad’s joined edge.  Then putting buttons along the edge of the quilt at the corresponding spots.

[Ken Thompson]

Pillow is important.

Sorta like the Monkey Pillow

https://sticksblog.com/2013/02/06/monkey-pillow-by-hike-bike-dale/

[Stephen M]

Try out a Monkey but pillow case, it’s well worth the extra few ounces.

[DGoggins]

The Monkey Man case certainly looks comfortable….it being a nice fleece pillow case….but its too heavy for a non multi use item like the buff. And, I really have my doubts about the case being able to be used on an Exped Hyperlite. It has a very drastic taper at the top of the pad…and even if you were able to cinch the “top” strap of the monkey man, I still think it would slip right off.

I really like your idea about securing the edges of the quilt to the edges of the pad.  Either with the sticky-patch & loop like you used, or possibly sewing the loop directly to the outer edge of the pad’s joined edge.  Then putting buttons along the edge of the quilt at the corresponding spots.

So….two things here ->

1. I did think of sewing fabric directly onto the joined edge of the pad. But man….your margin for error is extremely small. I’m not sure how wide that edge is on your neoair, but its a bit less than a 1/4″ on the exped. Even if I could sew a perfectly straight line, I would worry about the loop catching on something and ripping the fabric. If my taped loop catches on something…the tape just comes off and no big deal. Also, with stick on loops, I’m doing no permanent change to the pad…I could always just peel it off later.
2. Its not my idea to attach the edges of the quilt to the edges of the pad. My idea is to securely attach the EE straps themselves to the pad so they can’t rotate. I.e., I’ll take pretty much the exact same strap I used for the pillow above ->

And then just have the normal EE attachment clips in the middle of it, so it would like this more or less ->

It would save weight b/c it uses half as much webbing as a normal EE strap (so save .2oz per strap), though add in .08oz in male quilt clips, so it would save .24oz total from 2 straps.

It would be nice…b/c with the hyperlite, the bottom EE strap is actually kind of loose….the strap works for 20″ and 25″ pads, but with the taper of a mummy, its loose. (so it would be a problem with a neoair xlite and the hyperlites). With my system, I could make the bottom strap be tighter than the top strap super easily. I would have to push the male quilt clips through 4 loops…but that is a wash…I wouldn’t have to fiddle with looping and pushing the elastic loops down the pad, and then adjusting where the straps lay like I do currently.

Now….it sounds like your idea is more like what Katabatic does with their Elite quilts (palisade/chisos/etc). They have 4 mitten hooks on their quilts that are like…8″ “up” the quilt that you can then attach to the cordage around the pad. Are you thinking of completely getting rid of the EE straps (saving .8oz), and putting some buttons 6-8″ up the quilt that you could put through loops stuck to the edge of the pad? It would eliminate the possibility of a draft…but …I think you would start feeling that “pinning” feeling that was discussed in that other quilt thread.

I’m just trying to eliminate rotation of the pad straps….

[Nick Otis]

I have the same problem DG. Thanks for posting and giving me ideas to start fixing it.

[Ross L]

Could these be of any use….

https://www.thermarest.com/ca/camp-quilts-and-tech-blankets/fast-light-mattress-snap-kit

Looks like an easy solution, albeit not quite as light as your cuben loops.

[DGoggins]

Hmm, I didn’t see those mattress snap kits before. They would weigh more than cuben ones, but probably not by much. I wonder how well they stick compared to cuben repair tape….some amazon reviews say they stick well, others say they come right off. They would have to be quite sticky to handle the pressure of perpendicularly trying to snap the thermarest blanet off….

I think for about the same price I would just buy zpacks 2.5″ stick on loops.

Here is an interesting video though on the snap pads and thermarest blanket ->

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37R_OmUXzVk

I can definitely see the “pinning” problem with that system…the footbox is all kinds of wrong…and of course too wide to be warm. And having the quilt attached at the very edges would be…too wide again if you were on your side…too much dead air space.

But….if you were going to attach loops to your pad….I think you might as well just ditch the EE quilt straps completely and save the .8oz, and put the loops like 5″ apart in the middle of your pad and put the EE clips through the loops. True…you would completely lose width adjustability which is an advantage of quilts, but you can always vent by sticking your feet out the footbox (or if you have a revelation, open the footbox), and the wide variation of widths you can make at the neck opening.

Of course….you would need 4 loops for any pad that you want to attach a quilt too (I have a lot of pads), but if you only have 1 pad,  then yeah, sounds reasonable.

I also thought of trying the exped repair kit fabric patches ->

The fabric is amazingly thin….but it held the stitching just fine….I pulled it as hard as I could and the stitching didn’t break the fabric. My test patch was the small circle….and the adhesive wasn’t strong enough (a larger square patch might work). But…these fabric patches are meant to just cover a seam grip glue while it is drying (so you can put some glue on, wait a bit, then put the fabric over it and then sleep on it if there is a hole in the middle of the night), and then you seam grip over the patch edges at home.

Which…..brings up another point…if I really wanted these patches attached, I could always just use a bit of seam grip.

[Ben H.]

I really have my doubts about the case being able to be used on an Exped Hyperlite. It has a very drastic taper at the top of the pad…and even if you were able to cinch the “top” strap of the monkey man, I still think it would slip right off.  -DG

I have a Monkey Pillow and indeed I never use it because it always slips off my pad (vertical baffles).  Either way I don’t think Wallace is selling them any more.  All of the links for the Monkey pillow are dead.

 

[Stephen Parks]

Another thank you for motivating me to do something about pillow and quilt retention.  I have similar components: Exped, EE quilt and Big Sky pillow.  I have a straight Exped though, so I can just go with a cord around the pad for the pillow.

I have the older grosgrain straps that you mention, and when I gave them a couple of minutes of attention when I got the quilt, they just seemed frustrating and I packed them away.  Recently I’ve used very short sections of elastic with buckles at the end to keep the quilt closed around me, but it still rotates when I turn over (side sleeper) and the gap lets in cold air, so I still have to wake up to move the quilt under me.

I can fix the strap buckle in place with a knot (it immediately loosens otherwise), and I suppose I could do the same with the buckles that attach to the quilt.  Still though, I don’t understand why the buckles on the quilt and the straps are installed in the directions that they are – it seems that they are backward to me.  The buckles (on the strap that connect to the quilt) point inwards, toward each other, but it seems that they should be the other way around.  Maybe my quilt is too wide and I’m trying to get it too far under me instead of just having it come down to the sides of the pad, but it seems like the latter would allow drafts.  This probably needs a sketch for this to make any sense.

Edit: sketch added.  See how the buckles are pointed in toward the sleeper?

Edit 2: I see now that I could fold the strap back over itself and sew in a little loop that would flip the strap buckles over so they pointed outwards (sort of) and still be in the proper orientation to connect to the quilt.  This would also keep the buckles from sliding on the strap, but the locations wouldn’t be adjustable in the field.  Alternatively, I could disassemble the straps and flip the buckles over, but they would be even more prone to slipping so I’d still have to do something about that.

[DGoggins]

I have a straight Exped though, so I can just go with a cord around the pad for the pillow.

I have an Exped UL 7 too that I experimented on. I tried using cordage with it….but cordage is too slippery…not enough surface friction to keep it in place. (too narrow). I forgot to actually try an elastic loop around the pad though with an UL 7…and it actually seems to work fairly well ->

Yes…..it can still move up…but I think I would have to either be trying to move it up or do more than like….10 good upward moves with the pillow for it to slide up enough to come off the pad, which doesn’t sound realistic. And…this is with elastic webbing….the old grosgrain ribbon EE used to use would be too slippery I think.

I can fix the strap buckle in place with a knot (it immediately loosens otherwise),

Yeah, you definitely have the old grosgrain ribbon straps….new elastic straps don’t have a buckle that “completes” the loop….its sewn together.

and I suppose I could do the same with the buckles that attach to the quilt.

Well….the real solution is that I recommend you just get the new elastic straps (or make them)….the buckles themselves have a much harder time moving on the strap itself (though I’m trying to solve the rotating problem next…i.e…the loop rotating around the pad). There is a reason they stopped using that grosgrain ribbon…its too slippery for the quilt buckles.

The buckles (on the strap that connect to the quilt) point inwards, toward each other, but it seems that they should be the other way around.

You have an older EE quilt that has the two male buckles on the loop…new EE straps force you to have your quit in the male quilt pointing inwards direction. And….for good reason. Your sketch even shows it. The length between where the quilt buckle connects to the strap and the sewn edge of the quilt is about an inch and a half. 3 inches if you count both sides. Having it point in makes it so that the edge of the quilt is directly over where the buckle connects to the strap ->

The other way makes it so its the quilt edge is an inch and a half away from the connection point ->

If you use the straps…best case scenario is that if you had the buckles all the way in, you still have like a 3″ gap…just naturally b/c the fabric doesn’t stay in a taut line down the quilt. So having it point outwards makes it so that gap is always at least 6″ wide. And thus…you would lose 3″ of width variability across the pad, if that makes sense.

Maybe my quilt is too wide and I’m trying to get it too far under me instead of just having it come down to the sides of the pad, but it seems like the latter would allow drafts.

Ok…so if you have the quilt, any quilt, attached right to the sides of the pad, you are pretty much guaranteed to have drafts. You have to have some quilt material laying down on the pad that actually blocks the intake of air.

And….I have now learned that….an EE wide is too wide for me. I’m 5’10”, 175 lbs or so, athletic cut. The EE wide was just way too much volume….so I was sleeping colder. I’m claustrophobic a bit when sleeping, but I don’t need a cave to sleep in. So, I sold my 3 wide EE Revelations and got 3 regular width Enigmas (new footbox style). Even with the regular width quilt’s buckles brought all the way to the middle…I still have enough room. I was contemplating returning them and getting slim width, but I think I’d rather keep the regular width so I can keep the buckles closer in to the middle to increase the possibility of draft prevention. With a slim I would be forced to keep the buckles decently farther away from each other.

And…..I also learned that a EE regular width feels about the same width as a Katabatic flex wide, and a palisade wide feels a bit tighter than a EE regular width. I know that the specs say that they shouldn’t….but I had them all in my house and thats what I learned. Its from subtle differences like the way the quilts attach to the pads, the elastic in the Katabatic’s perimeter…and….I think a large part is baffle orientation. I think you gain 2-3″ of width in the EE b/c there is basically a “stretch” that happens when push laterally on the sides of an EE. Basically, the baffles can deflate a bit. But with the Katabatic…there is a stitch line running horizontally that makes it so it won’t gain any width so it feels tighter. The same thing would happen with the Katabatic if you pulled on it long ways…its just that no one would really pull on it longer…but pulling on it laterally happens all the time (like bringing your knees to your chest to sleep in fetal position.

Sorry…rambling a bit.

[Stephen Parks]

 I forgot to actually try an elastic loop around the pad though with an UL 7…and it actually seems to work fairly well ->

I was using 1/8″ shock cord with a cord lock for the pillow strap, and as you found with the elastic strap, it isn’t perfect, but unless I have a nightmare and flail about I think it will stay put through the night.  I may try some flat elastic and see if it is better.

If you use the straps…best case scenario is that if you had the buckles all the way in, you still have like a 3″ gap…just naturally b/c the fabric doesn’t stay in a taut line down the quilt. So having it point outwards makes it so that gap is always at least 6″ wide. And thus…you would lose 3″ of width variability across the pad, if that makes sense.

Yes, I would end up with the buckles very close together, and I would be sleeping on top of them, and even then might have a gap open up to the outside.  I’ll might as well try it and see how it works in practice.  [Hmmm, it should be possible to reconfigure the buckles so that the quilt buckles attach to the opposite side buckles on the strap so the edges of the quilt overlap.  This may be too tight for the upper strap, but could work for the middle one.]

And….I have now learned that….an EE wide is too wide for me. I’m 5’10”, 175 lbs or so, athletic cut. The EE wide was just way too much volume….so I was sleeping colder.

I’m the same height but 140 lbs. and also have a wide quilt (RevX) so it is waaay too wide for me.  I was going by EE’s recommendations for a slim side sleeper that rolls over.  But past a point, more width doesn’t help and the quilt needs to be held in place.

I’m trying to solve the rotating problem next…i.e…the loop rotating around the pad

Looking forward to what you end up with.  The elastic straps probably aren’t even as bad as the grosgrain ones.

[DGoggins]

Looking forward to what you end up with.  The elastic straps probably aren’t even as bad as the grosgrain ones.

Yeah…..the rotating straps aren’t a huge problem in reality…..and yeah, elastic flat webbing would be better staying in place than the grosgrain ribbon ones.

I still plan on doing the mod….I think I will just be buying the 2.5″ loops (or buy the larger 5×14″ repair patch from zpacks and making my own…though…only saves like $10, but I might do that just so I can guarantee the loop is large enough to easily slip a male clip through…I want it be hassle free…). Anyway, so I would be having the larger stick on loops to handle the extra stress and do the exact same thing I did with the pillow mod.

[DGoggins]

Ok, well I am going on a 5 day dirty devil packraft trip this weekend, so I thought I should go ahead and finish this mod so I could start testing it.

First I made 4 loops…this time I rounded the corners.

Then, I made 2 elastic straps, using the straight strap parts from EE.

I made them so its still adjustable. With the loose strap on the “female” side as close as possible, the female connector is in the middle of the pad, so there is loose strap on the male side. If I wanted to move the female connector (which is stitched in place), I just loosen the male end and tighten the female end.

in place ->

Anyway…so I’ll report back on how they do on the trip. I was a bit disappointed….b/c instead of saving .24oz total, I only saved .1oz, mainly b/c I made the straps still adjustable instead of just cutting the EE strap in half.

So with this mod, the straps can not rotate around the pad, it does save a bit of weight, and a tapered pad can still have the bottom strap be tighter (adjustable tightness). Now it just waits to be seen how secure the tape is or if it would need the 2.5″ loops from zpacks or….if I think it was even worthwhile to do this mod in the first place. (this is the 3rd most important mod to me….the pillow mod and drawstring mod are #1 and #2.).

[Stephen Parks]

Cool.  Good luck with the testing.

I modified one strap to have the buckles as close together as possible.  This strap will be used for the waist strap, and hopefully will be tight enough to keep drafts out.

Will do a little more living room testing to see if I’ll make the shoulder strap the same or space the buckles a little further apart.

[DGoggins]

Ok, just got back from the Dirty devil packraft trip.

The pillow strap solution….perfect. Completely solved my issue. Very little stress on the tape from the strap so the tape is holding strong.

The verdict is still out on the quilt strap mod. Not positive if its worth it or not. The small tape loops won’t hold….I had tape creep on 3 of 4 of the stick on loops ->

My zpacks order should be here soon where I’ll use larger tape patches…I do need to give it a bit more time before my official verdict on the mod is decided.

[Stephen Parks]

Thanks for the update.  It looks like the constant force from the elastic strap is leading to the creep.

So that wide RevX that I thought I had…  I figured I should measure it to be sure and the width is dead on 54″, which would make it a regular.width – I may order a slim.  So much for my memory.  I don’t know how many “degrees” of warmth I might get from a tighter fitting quilt assuming I would still have no drafts, but there ought to be some modest improvement, and I can save a few ounces over my current quilt.

[DGoggins]

You have a Rev X, right? You can save a lot of ounces over your current quilt by getting a new one…or do like I did, and save even more ozs by getting 950 fill power Enigmas with the new footbox.

[Stephen Parks]

Oh yes, I’ve been obsessing about quilt type, width, temp rating and weight over the past few days.

My quilt is a 2012 RevX reg/reg 30* with 2oz of overfill (so something like 25*) and it weighs in at 22.6 oz (bag only, no straps).  I’m using it with an Exped UL 7.  A few times I’ve been cold with this combo, even though when the temps are low I also wear some baselayers, hiking pants, down booties, beanie (currently trying to find a balaclava that fits) and down jacket (Alpine light when it is cold), hell sometimes even my windshirt and Helium II, and I put a 1/8″ CCF pad under the UL7.  I’m not sure of the exact temps when I get cold, but my water bottles are half-frozen in the morning, so high 20s at worst I’m guessing (?).  I must be firmly in the “cold-sleeper” part of the population.

I’m 5’10”, 140lbs, 45″ around the shoulders bare and 49″ with the Alpine Light on.  I’m a side sleeper and change sides several times a night (mostly because the UL7 isn’t comfortable enough) but I’m pretty still in between turnovers.  My current quilt feels too wide and I think I can go with a reg/slim.  I’d still like to be able to cover a wide temperature range with the new quilt, so I am tempted to go with a Revelation instead of the Enigma, but  that adds about 1 oz.  I figure that a 20* quilt, along with whatever warmth improvement I may get from the slimmer fit, would be sufficient to keep me warm on those nights when I would have been cold in the past.  So, a 20* reg/slim Revelation is 18.27 oz, which is still more than 4 oz. lighter than my current quilt.

But I sure would love to have a sub 1-pound quilt by going with a 30* if I could be warm in it (and going by the numbers, it seems that I should).  I could get a warmer pad instead, but that would be 3oz anyway.  Hard to know the most weight-efficient way to increase sleeping warmth but I suspect that if it is just a marginal increase that is needed the answer is more down on top.

When I think about warmth and flexibility I end up at the 20* Rev, but then I look at the weight of the 30* Enigma and I think how awesome that would be (save a half-pound off my current quilt!!!), but that might be stupid light in my case.

[jscott]

I use an Exped pad with a square (straight) top. I simply stuff my puffy into my sleeping bag stuff sack (or you could bring a pillow case) and place it in front of my pad on some clothing. I may need to include pants or a shirt to firm up the ‘pillow’. Then I rest my head over the edge of the mat, onto the down pillow. Sweet dreams. Granted, I bring a big puffy, even in summer.

this may only work for stomach and side sleepers.

[DGoggins]

So I got my zpacks order…I did order 2 2.5″ loops, though I discovered the loops are a bit too small to fit the quilt clips through them, so I’ll use the large cuben fiber tape patch to make my own.

[Nick Gatel]

[DGoggins]

Nice pics Nick. So you have an xtherm that is tapered towards the top….the pillow never slips up a few inches during the night for you or do you really cinch it down? (the horizontal baffles of an xtherm should help though)

[Casey Bowden]

In 2012 I tried this setup to keep my pillow on my pad. It didn’t work. The chord tore through the tape. I’ve ordered some tape with loops from Zpacks and will try again.

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