I have the gear, want to Dry Bake..don't want to melt my Titanium

[DGoggins]

Ok, I want to try dry baking, but I don’t want to melt my caldera cone or titanium pots. Here is my current gear list ->

 

I would prefer cooking with alcohol. But I know alcohol has the potential to overboil and melt my pots. So I don’t want that.

I have my graham cracker…and would rather avoid esbit…and I don’t think I could use this anyway, since it would need to simmer more? I.e., the graham cracker would produce too much heat?

I could also use tealights….though they seem like they would be heavier per energy than alcohol? I could be wrong there. And I don’t like the idea of having to wait for them to reharden before moving them.

So that leaves me with ->
12-10 stove: I could ask for the simmer ring from trail designs
Starlyte stoves: I’m pretty sure I could use the modified versions of the starlytes for more simmering…though I do have a carbon felt pad that gives an even smaller opening….

So, I technically do have a wire mesh stand I could use for steam baking…though it sounds like most people don’t like that way of baking b/c it leaves everything too moist.

My original though is to use my caldera cone, with 1.3L evernew, with the 5″ daddio. With either alcohol stove….would I need to raise the pot with stakes in the caldera cone? Otherwise…it would get too hot….but what about using the small diameter carbon pad with a starlyte?

Or even…what if I did use tealights? Could I rest the pot on the caldera cone then and not worry about overheating?

And……I could use either the hillbilly or 600ML olicamp cups with the 3″ daddio, and I guess use aluminum foil lid with the carbon felt hat….but then I would need to come up with some sort of stand to raise the pot off an alcohol stove….I could still use the caldera cone as a windscreen though….

Anyway….just worried about ruining my gear…or cooking…so please dissuade my fears!

 

[Bob Shuff]

I think your Ti gear is safe, but I’ve tried and failed with several alcohol stoves in a smaller cone (for mini solo kit).  I was thinking about lifting the pot, or using the carbon felt simmer pad from zelph.

 

Flat Cat epicurean esbit setup works, but like you, I’d like to use alcohol.

Looking forward to other responses.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Dry Baking in Titanium 101:
Titanium is a very robust material and under backpacking cooking conditions, you will not be able to melt the windscreen or pot. The melting point of pure titanium is 3,034°F. That being said, you can physically damage your pot. If the bottom of the pot experiences a larger thermal gradient (differential temperature center to outside) you can stress/yield the pot. This temperature gradient can cause a condition called “oil canning” meaning that your pot will no longer sit flat (Google the term if you want to know more details). Oil canning will be more common in thin walled pots (of course that means the more expensive ones are more sensitive). What is the temperature differential that will cause oil canning? Good question, I don’t know.
A way to even out the heat is to distribute the flame. A large distance between the flame and the pot is one way to control this. Another is to use a heat diffuser. You can use a thick walled aluminum pan as an internal diffuser as well.
Since titanium is a poor thermal conductor and most backpacking pots tend to be thin, it is easy to create hot spots on your pot. I have found that dry baking with titanium pots is safe when using a stove that puts out about 100 W. As a starting point, a 100 W output will bring 2 cups of 70 F water to a boil in about 25 minutes.
Alcohol stoves tend to be sensitive to thermal feedback. When boiling water, the pot will reach ~212 F. When dry baking, the pot can get up to the 400 F to 600 F and more. Because the pot gets hotter, the thermal feedback is more of an issue. The easiest way to control this is increasing the distance between the stove and the pot. A gap of several inches in typical. Diffuser will not work as that keeps a hot surface too close to the pot (edited) to the stove . Additionally, using an alcohol stove in a small space is tricky as well (think small mugs). Good luck.

[Pigeon]

Thanks for posting that, Jon. Toward the end, did you mean to say “diffuser will not work as that keeps a hot surface too close to the stove”?

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Duke,

Yes a diffuser plate too close to an alcohol stove will cause it to overheat.  Evernew uses this concept on the Appalachian Set, the Turbo plate traps heat closer to the alcohol stove causing it to vaporize the alcohol quickly in order to burn faster.

I will edit my earlier post.

[Pigeon]

OK, makes sense. I want to try dry baking once I get a cup to fit inside my pot. I’m going to check your site but don’t want to go down the rabbit hole :).

I’m happy to hear my thick walled titanium pot and tall Caldera Cone might work.Concerning DGoggins’ question about placing the pot on the stakes, outside the cone… It sounds like (depending on the cone) that’s too far from the stove and not enough radiant heat up the sides? Maybe a silicone band could be used to lower the pot partially, assuming it won’t melt.

Also, I was thinking of lining my pot with several wrinkled layers of aluminum foil to spread the heat. Since you specified a thick walled aluminum pan, I’m guessing that’s not enough.

(sorry I know there are other references, I will read them.)

[DAN-Y]

Use the StarLyte XL (slow) with carbon felt simmer disc. Support the pot with the Ti tent stakes furnished by Trail Designs or coat hanger wire.

[DGoggins]

Zelph, thank you for your reply. OK, so even with a simmer version of the starlyte XL, I would still need to raise it up on stakes? Ok, will try that.

Though….can you tell me what diameter the hole is on the starlyte simmer version? My carbon felt ‘simmer’ hole seems awfully small…might be smaller than your simmer version…

 

[Mario Caceres]

I have tried dry-baking with a evernew pot similar to yours  (just a bit smaller, the 0.9 version).  The pot will be able to handle the dry baking but just expect it to change the color a bit.  Before dry baking my pot looked like new  (I mostly use it to boil water and re-hydrate my meals) , but now the color has changes a bit on the bottom.  Still works well.

As far a stove that simmers well…. I like the starlyte with the carbon felt ring on top, but the opening in the carbon felt slowly increases in size with use.   If you put a  small ring of heavy duty aluminum foil on top of the carbon felt it will help slowdown that problem.  (The inside diameter of the aluminum foil ring is the same than the inside diameter of the carbon felt ring but much smaller than the opening of your starlyte).  I would post some pictures but I have my hiking gear in storage.

[DAN-Y]

@mariocaceres  ” If you put a  small ring of heavy duty aluminum foil on top of the carbon felt it will help slowdown that problem.”

I agree . I did that to one of my XL Starlytes and it eliminates the deterioration.

@hjuan99   “….can you tell me what diameter the hole is on the starlyte simmer version?”

The diameter of the simmer version is 3/4″

I did a quick test this morning using a 3″ diameter stainless steel mesh disc to diffuse the flame of a Modified Starlyte Burner and it works very well. I used stainless steel rods to span the top holes of the Caldera Cone used with the Toaks 550 kit. The screen weighs 6gr. I can send you one to experiment with, let me know, no charge.

[DGoggins]

Are you kidding? That would be awesome. Pm sent with my address.

And…… Are you using standard kitchen heavy duty aluminum foil? It would be nice if I could glue the two together though I don’t know of a glue that would withstand the temperature or stick to both materials…

[Todd Stough]

I’m also looking to try baking and I’ve been talking with Jon Fong.  He suggested using 4 tea lights at first to see how I like it.  His alcohol stove and simmer ring is not very expensive and seems to really be perfect for backing.  Low alcohol use and the temp is just right.  The epicurean esbit setup also seems great if you wanted to go that route.

My fat daddios 5 in pan should be here next week and I’ll give it a shot with the tea lights.

[Mario Caceres]

Regarding aluminum foil, I used something thicker than the kitchen stuff, but that may work too if you double it up.  Also you can cut it from the base of a disposable aluminum pie form.

[Mario Caceres]

It also works well for making pizza on the trail if you have a MSR Flex skillet.  Here a few pictures from a trip last year.

This is before I started to use the little aluminum foil ring, as you can see the opening of the carbon felt had gotten much bigger that originally was.

Pizza cooking under low heat (simmer) for about 20 minutes.

And voila !!!

[DGoggins]

Nice pics! Where did you find stainless steel wire to create your pot stand? I heard that most home depot type places have zinc plated wire that you don’t want to use with cooking…

Ok, first…I did confirm that my smallest carbon felt is 3/4″ diameter, so that is good. So now I have fast, slow, and simmer versions of the starlyte (and starlyte xl).

Regarding the aluminum foil….how is that preventing the charring anyway? Isn’t the flame still passing through the felt anyway? And…are you just using scissors to cut as good of a circle as you can?

 

 

 

 

[Mario Caceres]

hjuan99,
“Where did you find stainless steel wire to create your pot stand? I heard that most home depot type places have zinc plated wire that you don’t want to use with cooking”

I got it from the ACE hardware store so maybe is the same stuff they sell at Home Depot.  Thanks for the warning.  I may have to look into a different support system for my pot

“Regarding the aluminum foil….how is that preventing the charring anyway? Isn’t the flame still passing through the felt anyway?”
I’m not sure  WHY this works, but it did in my case.  It’s pretty easy to implement so give it a try and see if it works for you.  (Let us know either way).  But even if the carbon felt “char anyway”, at least the little aluminum ring will help to keep the size of the opening unchanged (keeping its simmering qualities). Yes, you can cut the aluminum foil circle with regular scissors, (Fold in half the material, cut half circles, open up at the fold and you end up with a nice little flat ring.

[DGoggins]

Wait a minute….why even use the carbon felt in the first place? Zelph uses aluminum rings to “downsize” the stoves already…why not just use an aluminum ring to make a simmering stove?

[Mario Caceres]

If you have a dedicated simmering stove then probably yes.  The purpose of the removable carbon felt disk is to be able to do both regular boiling and simmering with the same stove.  Also I’m not sure if the carbon felt disc does a better job dealing with the “thermal feedback” Jon was referring in his response to you. ( I would think the aluminum disk inside the dedicated simmer stove gets warmer than the carbon felt disk.  It would be interesting to do some side by side testing.

[DGoggins]

No I mean…you could just take your removable aluminum ring and just toss it on top of the starlyte…just like the carbon felt.

I mean…people do the same thing with a starlyte (slow)…they remove the aluminum ring from the top with pliers, then they have “both” versions…when they need a slower burn, they just put the aluminum ring on top the now unmodified starlyte…

 

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

The flame front sits on top of the surface.  So with Carbon felt, it sits on the top surface and reduces direct heat contact of the flame to the body of the stove.  However; the flame being close to the carbon with degrade it over time.  If you just add just a metal spacer, the heat will transfer through the base material to the stove.  A better way is to use a carbon felt topped with a metal layer.  The flame front will not contact and degrade the carbon as it will sit on top of the metal.  I hope that this makes sense, if not I can make a sketch for you.  My 2 cents.

[DAN-Y]

@jonfong  The flame front sits on top of the surface.  So with Carbon felt, it sits on the top surface and reduces direct heat contact of the flame to the body of the stove.  However; the flame being close to the carbon with degrade it over time.  If you just add just a metal spacer, the heat will transfer through the base material to the stove.  A better way is to use a carbon felt topped with a metal layer.  The flame front will not contact and degrade the carbon as it will sit on top of the metal.

I agree with Jon.

I used staples to attach the square piece with hole to the carbon felt. I tried JB weld and it popped off. Yes, use a square piece of aluminum folded in half, cut half circle, unfold and then staple that to carbon felt. A square is easier to staple.

 

[Mario Caceres]

Thanks Jon for the explanation.  That makes a lot of sense.

Dan, I’m not sure attaching the aluminum foil ring to the carbon felt disc is really needed, gravity just keeps it in place.  On the other hand perhaps stapling it as you suggested minimizes the chances of loosing it on the field.  I wonder if using a grommet (of the proper size) would also work well to “shield” the hole on the carbon felt disk and prevent it from “charring” and increasing in size thru use.

[Don Burton]

Dgoggins

nice set up! I have a very similar set up that I’ve piecemealed over time. I’ve just started dry baking and my set up is .9L evernew (short/wide), starlyte (original), MYOG felt simmer disk with an opening roughly the size of a dime, 4″ daddio with the lip cut off at work by our machine shop and my MYOG caldera cone, “caldera clone.” It’s been baking biscuits and muffins great. The stainless steel mesh diffuser looks interesting because I feel like if it works it would be more consistent than relying on my MYOG felt simmer pad that changes over time.

I also made a simmer adapter using scrap ti foil and a dime a hole template. It works most of the time but since I couldn’t get the foil perfectly flat (comes rolled) there are slight air gap that sometimes additional flames escape through and produce too much heat.

You have all the tools. I’d just start experimenting or buy Jon Fong’s Flatcat set up.

[DAN-Y]

On Monday I’ll make some 3″ and 4″ stainless steel mesh discs available in “gear deals”

 It works most of the time but since I couldn’t get the foil perfectly flat (comes rolled) there are slight air gap that sometimes additional flames escape through and produce too much heat.

I originally made the felt simmer discs 3″ with hole to cover entire starlye to prevent any stray flames from escaping.

[Don Burton]

Dan Y,

Let us know when you put those mesh discs up for sale. I’ll buy a 4″ one.

The felt disc simmer “lid” I made didn’t let any flames escape. I was just trying to make one out of the scrap ti foil for durability. :-)

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