Hunting for the ultimate hooded down jacket

I have the Rab Ultra G. Same style as the Neutrino Pro. Different weight. Different fabric. Long enough in the back. Good quality.  Comfortable. With the hood down, the collar tends to rub on the bottom of my ears which can be annoying. I kind of gets caught on my earlobes. Maybe you got smaller ears.. I think it runs a little slim.

I found the best price online at Backcountry. They often run 20% off sales. It was also worth joining their club at that price for their rebate. You pay for return shipping.

My wife has a Mammut that sounds similar to what you are describing. She loves it, but only wears it when it’s quite cold.

Since you are looking for a ‘lifetime’ replacement, it might be worth it to look into custom made gear. I found Ben from GooseFeet Gear great to work with. You can describe your needs to him, like longer in the back, thicker fabric, certain amount of filling, etc. and he makes the gear to your specifications. Pricier, but tailormade for you.

MontBell Permafrost. I have one and it’s insane. Ultra-warm, with a lot of well thoughtout features to retain that warmth like: deep pockets with a layer of down insulation in front and behind where the hand lives, fleece in places where your skin will be touching so it doesn’t feel cold, massive hood with all the various adjustability to really cinch it down.

I ordered from the online Japanese site because with shipping it was something like 60% the price of ordering it from Montbell USA, not sure if that bizarre loophole still exists. I wear a size large and am 5’9″ and it covers my bum, but not down to mid-thigh or anything too long.

Looks like it’s actually on sale from MB USA: https://www.montbell.com/us/en/products/detail/2301281

What about the Patagonia Durable Down Parka?

https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-durable-down-parka/85525.html?dwvar_85525_color=BCBN

The problem with these long lasting investments is that most of us haven’t tried too many of the options out there.

A popular choice in my circles is the Mountain Equipment K7.
On a spec sheet it may not look that spectacular, but it’s a well thought out design that’s really well made.

It’s also not narrowly aimed at the UL crowd, in such a way that it compromises on durability. It has a reasonably durable face fabric that should be able to stand up to some abuse and potentially give you the longevity your looking for.

My closest comparison from personal experience (and owning) is the MH Phantom Parka. And it’s not really close at all.

The Rab Neutrino is a great piece with 20D fabric. They improved it this year by adding one interior mesh drop pocket (previously it had none) which is handy for keeping batteries or phones warm, or keeping a flat water bag from freezing.

This winter I stepped it up to the warmer Rab Positron which is also cut larger for more layering. I found the Neutrino slightly shorter in the back than I would like. If you’re needing to go as low as -25F, I would recommend the Positron over the Neutrino. The Positron was also upgraded this year going from 20D to 30D fabric. They added one more exterior chest pocket (now has two), and they added 2 interior mesh drop pockets. So it now has a total of 6 pockets. The weight did increase from about 28 to 31 oz. The Neutrino is about 10 ounces lighter. I used the new Positron at -1F in 40 mph winds so the windchill was much colder than that. I was very warm. I could definitely see taking it down to the -20’sF with some significant layers underneath. I didn’t need hardly any layers underneath when I used it. Fortunately the size large has a good amount of extra room for me at 175lbs and 5’11”.

I also recommend the Outdoor Research Super Alpine Down Parka. It’s very comparable to the Positron in warmth and features but a couple inches longer. I think the sizing on the Positron is slightly roomier. The Large in the OR was slightly tight if I fill up the pockets. But the Positron Large is big enough I can stuff the pockets and have a few layers on underneath – and yet it doesn’t fit overly large.

Volker64 is correct.

There are many other equivalent options but first hand experience reduces the risk of just referencing test data.

@Richard Nisley, All

When adding intrinsic CLOs (no air layer included) for a multi-layer wardrobe, should 0.3 CLO be added to every garment except the outer one for the air space between the layers?

I never see the CLO calculation include the intra layer air CLO but my understanding is that it’s a main reason why 2 layers AD60 are warmer than 1 layer AD120.

My understanding is to then add the outer garment boundary air insulation CLO depending on wind speed: https://lipidity.com/clo/clothes/

If you’re looking at the Neutrino Pro, have a look at the Mythic Ultra as well (though I have no personal experience with either). More money, but also more down of a higher fill-power, TILT reflective lining and box-wall baffles in the torso, all for less weight than the Neutrino. A slightly longer back as well.

William ChiltonBPL Member
If you’re looking at the Neutrino Pro, have a look at the Mythic Ultra as well

I also bought the Rab Mythic Ultra this winter in Marmalade color. Unfortunately I bought a Large and can’t return it now. It’s a drastically smaller cut than the Positron and Neutrino. The spec weight is 19oz, and mine came in at 17.2oz. It is big enough in the shoulders and I could wear it but only with 1-2 thin long sleeve layers underneath. A thin long sleeve and a thin fleece makes it too tight. An XL would probably be a great fit. But even then, the lack of interior pockets is frustrating. I find it crucial to be able to keep flat water bags from freezing by storing in interior drop pockets near my body heat when temps fall under 10F or less – because then even water in a nalgene cozy will start to freeze up (unless you recently boiled it).

The color of the Marmalade is beautiful but it will be fairly dirt prone and the 10D fabric is also a lot more delicate. But I now understand the super high down fill power jackets (900-1000 DFP) usually use 10D fabric or thinner because a thicker fabric limits the ability of it to fully loft. So 800 DFP seems like a good compromise for most people on being very packable and warm for the weight while still allowing reasonable durability with 20D fabric. But if you are into super tall mountains in the winter – there’s no question a premium jacket with 900 DFP will save you valuable ounces as you attempt a long grueling climb.

If I had the XL Rab Mythic Ultra I would def wear it as it’s over 3/4 lb lighter than my Positron. But since I can’t test my size Large with many layers, it’s hard to judge whether the XL would be as warm as the Positron. I tend to doubt it. I also have a 21 oz Black Diamond Vision Down Parka which would actually have been just fine instead of the Positron on my last trip at -1F with high winds. It’s similar warmth and weight to the Neutrino but it has a bit more length in the back and two interior drop pockets with a nice amount of room for layering in size Large. So I’m confident the warm of the Positron combined with the roominess of the fit for layering would allow me to approach -20F temps with good gloves, leg insulation and toe warmers in my boots.

Given the importance of the concept of layering in winter backpacking – your warmest layer should have some margin to wear a few layers underneath – otherwise you are carrying extra layers you can’t wear simultaneously – which is wasteful of your energy. But there is a limit to the max number of layers. I would say 5 layers is a good rule of thumb for max layering. If all you bring is one thick coat with a close fit that allows only one thin layer, then you are stuck either being very warm or very cold with no adjustment in the middle.

Most people find extreme cold miserable because they lack the gear to enjoy it. But because of the rarity of such extremes, and the high cost of very warm high DFP jackets – most people don’t get them. But if you want to explore the mountains in winter, you need a coat that can go quite a ways beyond what you normally need in your daily life in winter. It’s a high price for a rarely used item. But that’s the price of admission that can turn blizzard conditions into feeling like a winter wonderland.

David D – The guarded hot plate clo/oz for Alpha Direct 60 is higher than any of the other Alpha Direct variants; this is independent of the air gap variable.

My lazy way of factoring in the outter air gap variable is to use the weather forecast “feels like” temperature rather than the ambient temp to select a clothing ensemble to begin with.

Is the reason that it feels colder when windy, that it blows away the air layer on the outside of your clothing?

Thanks @Richard Nisley, the ol wind chill index.  That assumes bare skin so will be a worst-case.  I usually find its nowhere near that bad with a good (35 CFM) wind shell on.

I’m surprised that a between-layer air gap either doesn’t add insulation or that its so small that it doesn’t get accounted for when CLO is summed up.   Personal experience says it matters, and byrnie warmth is based on the air gap in the mesh.  But perhaps that’s not what is actually happening, and its that the air gap creates a microclimate for slower evaporative cooling between layers which feels less cold.  Dunno.

Fun topic.  I’ll be researching this one more.

Edit: after arguing with ChatGPT (it’s first response was flat out made up), it appears ISO 9920 ignores the inter-layer air gap because it may be compressed, very inconsistent or undergo too much air mixing.  But maybe it made that up too

Apologies to the OP for the thread derail

My view when wearing a double mesh layer such as 2 layers of AD60, is that the different layers of mesh intersect creating an indirect path that helps to retain heat while still allowing moisture to escape.

“I’m surprised that a between-layer air gap either doesn’t add insulation or that its so small that it doesn’t get accounted for when CLO is summed up.”

Yeah, when I wear something it hangs down from my shoulders or waist so there’s a bigger air layer.

For example, I wear single layer pants even when it’s 20F, my legs don’t feel particularly cold, nor do I overall – but I have to have enough over my torso, like base layer, 3.5 osy apex vest, 9 ounce down vest, jacket.

The ultimate would have to be Feathered Friends Rock and Ice Parka—but a step below would be their Khumbu parka which replaced the Icefall—the one I own.  It’s down hood is very nice.

I recommend two parkas.

1.) Outdoor Vitals Novapro

2.) LL Bean Wind Challenger

Both have the same, warmer staggered woven baffles (i.e. not sewn through), good features and priced in the mid $300. range.  I got the  Wind Challenger B/C it has several more features than the  Novapro but both are very similar otherwise. While the Wind Challenger has “only” 650 fill DWR treated goose down I want that slightly less compressable, slightly heavier down just because it IS less compressible, say when carrying a pack or leaning against the back of a very long chair lift in blowing -15 F. weather. I mean c’mon, the weight difference is about that of a standard SNICKERS bar.