High Fat Trail Diet

[Bill Budney]

Jerry: Agreed that salt response is individual. The easy way to lower BP is low carbs. The biggest culprits are flour and all kinds of sugars. I suspect that baked goods are the main problem with standard American diets. (Oh, and french fries. It isn’t so much the potato itself; it is the acrylamide and trans fats from deep frying that are killers.)

Murali: Right. If you go low enough on carbs (with higher fat to compensate) then, over time, you should be able to get your Trig:HDL ratio under 2. I would have expected HOMA-IR to be slightly elevated as well, because it is a different indicator of the same thing (insulin resistance). Maybe watch both of those over time?

My only hesitation would be that your power:weight is excellent (as are the rest of your tests); even if you get stronger, adding muscle weight could lower the ratio. Tradeoffs. And maybe nothing would change, so it’s just something to watch while you experiment.

People over 65 need more protein because they don’t synthesize muscle as efficiently (and lose it all too easily). Just something to keep in mind for the future.

To me, the statin arguments on both sides seem exaggerated. Statins are a useful tool if you need them, but are certainly over-sold. The problem is that LDL-c is the wrong target, so taking a statin just because your LDL is high is a crude guess at best. ApoB might be better but, as you say, small damaged (oxidized or glycated) particles are the real culprits. If you measure that (and inflammation markers), then you will have a much clearer picture of whether you need a statin.

Some people benefit from very low doses of statins. You can test at different dosage levels to see how it works for you, if and when you get there. Taking them at bedtime also reduces side effects. Lipophilic statins have been associated with increased dementia risk, so maybe stick with hydrophilic statins.

On the trail food topic: Jerky is lightweight but too lean; sausages are dense in both protein and fat and travel well. Eggs are nature’s most perfect food; hard-boiled keep for a day or two unrefrigerated. Whey shakes (sugar-free) are almost pure, high-quality, protein at minimum weight. I use a combination of the four to get the balance I want. Maybe beef or poultry sausages if you avoid pork.

Disclaimer: I am still not a medical doctor and nobody should listen to me. Listen to your doctor, then make up your own mind.

[Jerry Adams]

yeah, listen to your doctor, although if you get some ideas from wherever then you can ask your doctor about it.

I don’t eat a lot of sugar, because it’s so unhealthy, but I do eat too many whole grain crackers.  That would be an experiment – cut all my whole grain cracker eating and see if that changes my blood pressure.

[AK Granola]

These two – Johnny Bowden and Stephen Sinatra – sell products directly related to the advice they give. To me that’s a major red flag as to their lack of objectivity. Sinatra was also into some major quack/magic crap. What a charlatan. It reminds me of Dr. Oz openly and admittedly lying to Congress about the crap he sold on his website. And there are no consequences for lying and making millions. I’d say again, reader (and buyer) beware.

[Murali C]

They also sell Salmon I think. I am not buying any of their products – but I don’t dismiss what they say outright. Also what they are saying is corroborated by a few other doctors who have written similar books. And also, the internet, backpackinglight, reddit forums help people get views from other folks who are experimenting or undergoing similar journeys.  Just like how AK – your threads are seeking advice from fellow backpackers instead of say going to REI or other sports shops to get “expert” opinions. I don’t think you should blindly follow what others are saying. But if some of it makes sense, then, you can experiment and if it works – great. If not, you don’t have to follow it. Besides, the advice they are providing can be followed without buying any of their products…whereas a statin company makes money only when you buy their product.

Every GP/Cardiologist will say take statins – but they will never tell you that there can be horrible side effects and that you could develop diabetes etc. Or the fact that one can actually look at other metrics to see if high cholesterol is a problem or not. The GP’s/cardiologists spend 10 minutes with you because they are on the clock and follow flow charts – high cholesterol – take statins etc.

I am not sure if you have read how statin companies tout “Relative Risk Reduction” to say statins provided a 35% to 50% benefit which a doctor then uses and pushes it on you. I mean it’s not like drug companies are not doing the same things you are accusing others of doing. And then the same drug company will use “Absolute Risk Reduction” to say side effects like muscle weakness is very little. I mean they play all kinds of games to sell their stuff. Medicine is a multi-billion dollar industry.

Bill – I am not disputing that statins are bad for all. In fact, many of thes guys will say, take statins if you had an adverse event like heart attack etc as statins can stabilize the plaque and prevent it from rupturing and causing blood clots etc. And who knows – I may really need statins – but, I want to exhaust natural avenues before I take medicines. As one medicine can lead to more medicines and the cycle goes on.

And yes – we are not doctors – but, doctors either don’t have the time or they have their own vested insterests. Ultimately you are responsible for your health and not the doctor who spends 10 minutes and moves on to a different patient.

[AK Granola]

I agree Murali – sometimes there are better experts here than at any REI, for backpacking advice. My local REI hires anyone who can breathe and show up for work, no experience necessary. And little training provided, except in shoes. They do a lot of training for folks selling shoes. But I am more careful with my health than with a piece of gear. I would never ask for or take medical advice on a forum, if it’s serious. High cholesterol or high blood pressure are pretty darned serious stuff. I can understand why people turn to google or strangers on the internet; I don’t even get 10 minutes with my doctor any more! Not available.

[Bill Budney]

Murali: Yes, the statistics on statins are that all cause mortality is reduced for secondary prevention (after an event), although not for primary prevention (no events). But that isn’t the full picture; we can do better than that.

You are in a good place: You have no plaque now and you want to keep it that way. On the other hand, if you have no plaque doing what you do, then why would you need a statin? It’s like bears: Don’t worry, but remain vigilant.

Inflammation and glycation are the things most likely to kill you. Inflammation and insulin resistance markers (and particle size/count) will give you a clearer picture about any potential atherogenesis than LDL alone.

Agreed that climbing mountains regularly does more for you than most medications could. (And improving insulin sensitivity cannot hurt.)

[Jerry Adams]

definitely no money for studies that show mountain climbing is healthful

one thing scamsters will sometimes do is say something reasonable, like you should be eating more vegetables.  Then, now that they have your confidence, they’ll try to sell you something that’s not effective.  I’ve noticed Mercola doing that.

[W I S N E R !]

A scattershot post of thoughts here….for whatever it’s worth, if anybody is out there…

I’m coming to the conclusion that this discussion (diet in general) is so subjective that it becomes nearly pointless to solicit public opinion.

I generally don’t listen to people that aren’t doing something exceptional with their bodies. I am still pursuing athletic goals that are challenging to me, so I naturally look to people and athletes I trust that are more advanced than I am…people that I can confirm are actually walking the walk.

It seems to me that in a general sense, the basics come down to two very simple factors: energy balance and nutrition. The former ensures we are not wasting due to excess or insufficient energy (excess most common here), the latter ensuring we have the nutrients we need for overall health/recovery relative to our activity levels.

So the average advice for an average person performing average human feats is pretty easy: eat a balanced diet (whatever that even means within your culture) and not too much. Given the diseases of excess that we face in this country, emphasis should probably be on the last point. Or even more bluntly: I’m not too sure it’s productive to fuss over organic veggies and marginal nutrient gains or dialing your macros when you’re running a massive calorie surplus and not exercising enough. First things first.

But I think elite athletes complicate this discussion in an interesting way. When optimization enters the equation, some very personal as well as sport-specific variables get introduced. Problem is, these very elite and specific concerns start creeping into the conversations of very average people like us. It’s amazing how average people often have the nutrition opinions of Olympic athletes. It’s not surprising…Because the average advice for the average person is not very sexy, doesn’t sell too many books, nor make for lively internet discussion.

Thing is, even with athletes, the details are probably not even all that important until we start approaching the more elite. Betting that a good majority of recreational athletes would still see better performance simply “eating a balanced diet and not too much”.

But there are plenty of outliers, athletes and average folk, that for whatever reason are not well served by the average advice. For this reason it saddens me to hear the term “fad diet” thrown around; it’s rude and dismissive. Some people, especially athletes but not always, clearly find that certain diets allow them to maintain solid energy balance and performance better than others…while still enjoying their lives and being who they need to be.

If you are not where you want to be, whether in weight, performance, or overall health, then thinking about changing what you’re doing is very prudent.  But whatever it is for you, it has to be sustainable and enjoyable. Speak all you want from a purely biological perspective, but most of us are not fleshy robots programmed to eat for optimum efficiency. Living on eggs and avocados? While possible, no thanks. The cultural factors that go into making a healthy diet both sustainable and enjoyable are probably too numerous to count. When people start preaching The Way,  they too often miss this point: Culture. Don’t talk to a Buddhist about the bioavailability of animal protein or ask the husband of a Middle Eastern woman to give up pita bread (ahem…tried it, doesn’t work).

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Don’t hate on potatoes if all you ever consume is the literal 4 choices offered at the store: Russet, Yukon, White and Red. And oh, the 5th, the Blue.

Just like with ALL fruit and vegetables there is a literal world of them you have never seen, nor even tried. Potatoes came from South America, to Europe, to North America (except for the Ozette Potato, which was brought directly to the tip of North America, planted and left behind by the conquistadors). There are 100’s of varities you can grow – and yes, I have a bunch of them seeding currently, direct from South America. These are how the potato was meant to be.

It’s like tomatoes: The newer types are bred for a high sugar content. Stick with the older types.

Same with apples. And every item you see sold in produce. They have been bred to last, and often to be sweeter now.

Sugar in fruit and vegetables isn’t the danger – for produce contains so much more than just that. It’s full nutrition.

Wheat isn’t the devil for example. It’s a power house and literally is why the world is what it is – for we can live on it. It’s what we do with that whole grain, and how we corrupt it.

If it makes you feel better, then eat the way you want – but everyone is different, and we tolerate foods differently. There is no 1 right way.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Speaking of potatoes, Peru has over 400 varieties of potatoes.  The Incas developed freeze dried potatoes in the 13th century: they took them high up in the Andes, let them freeze, stomped on them and let them freeze and dry.  They are also fun to backpack with.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/foods/chunos-potatoes-feet

 

[AK Granola]

Inca-stomped freeze-dried potatoes could be highly marketable. Nothing like a new trend to sell well!

[Jerry Adams]

good point Craig, “fad diet” is sort of derogatory when the person is frustrated they haven’t convinced others

or “follow the science”

[AK Granola]

I apologize if I offended anyone’s beliefs. I do get defensive sometimes, esp after witnessing the whole covid debacle (still killing 2000/week in the U.S.), people unwilling to vaccinate, etc. and realizing how little science actually counts any more in American culture. It kind of makes me crazy, tbh, so I overreacted. I’ll skip “is this a good diet” questions like the OP from now on! HYOH and eat your own whatever.

 

[Jerry Adams]

I thought your comments were great

I still wear a mask when in public.  And am vaccinated.  The science says they’re effective but there’s uncertainty.  If someone else chooses not to, that’s fine with me.

 

[Thom]

I follow a Whole Foods ,fork over knives plan. Once a week cheat ,have fish or whatever. So definitely not in the high fat trail plan.
thom

[David D]

AK G, as the Op, please feel free to keep contributing to this thread, it’s great.  I appreciate everyone’s input.

As a research scientist/engineer for decades, I know how to filter shite from shineola, and the level of discourse and experience here is clearly high enough to support a plurality of data/studies etc.

[Bill Budney]

Murali, David: Here is an interesting podcast between Shawn Baker and Paul Mason (both MD’s). They discuss many of the things we talked about in this thread. Also why most people need more magnesium, and why people reducing carbohydrates may need more salt for a few weeks (I always forget to suggest that).

You already know most or all of it, but sometimes it is reassuring to hear it from people who actually know what they are talking about. ;)

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

I am not a science denier…I am a science questioner.

For example, I take my BP medications faithfully because I know they will help me with all the inherited medical issues I have and will face. I watch my sugar intake now, because I don’t want to be my Mother. And so on. And while I got vaccinated like a good little toady (because I wanted to go on a trip) I will never take another dose. It didn’t exactly do much of anything, even 2 doses. Besides get me on 2 cruises.

Because I caught Covid like most of America did – one of my kids brought it home, along with strep throat and the general croup, all in a 3 month period. It took 2.5 years for my 25 year old to get it – and he worked in a grocery store without a mask on most of the time. My now 11 yo caught it with no symptoms. When my 25 yo caught it this year finally he didn’t give it to any of us – because we had already had it. We didn’t even quarantine him.

Since then I have traveled. A lot. I fly – recently I flew to Argentina. I take cruises. I do not wear face masks. I wash my hands often, I don’t shake hands and I stay hydrated. I don’t avoid people – and never did during the pandemic. I attended many meetings in public, against the decree of our governor.

Why?

My husband had his first Melanoma during the pandemic. I decided I wasn’t going to wait and not travel. As he did.

We have been bucket listing as much as we can.

Because you never know what tomorrow holds.

He has had 3 skin cancer surgeries during the pandemic and has a 4th next month. The Melanoma one left his leg  disfigured. They got it all, and yes, they took lymph nodes. Thankfully next month’s surgery isn’t Melanoma. But he’s going to lose part of his ear.

We keep being out there, to keep our immune systems robust. So we can deflect as much as possible.

That isn’t being a science denier. If I was 85 and had severe health issues (COPD for example), I might be more cautious.

But instead I am planning a trip soon, for another bucket item. I’ll stay hydrated, eat little sugar, eat a balanced high protein diet, exercise a lot and let my immune system stay robust.

[David D]

Murali C wrote “David – keep us updated on your experiments”

Hi Murali, here’s what I found.  This may seem like overkill to some, but it really isn’t when you consider that it reduces food weight by one to 3 pounds on long trips.

Looking at the bigger picture, reducing food weight should be getting a lot more attention than it does. I think guys just like tinkering with gear. :)

First step is accurately predicting body weight change over the trip.

First estimate basal metabolic rate (BMR) and multiply it by the “PAL” to determine daily calorie needs. The hard part is that PAL depends on your physiology and the toughness of the hike for you.  Someone else’s PALs might not work for you.  It took trial and error of a few trips with calorie counting and before/after weigh ins to fine tune my PALs to be 1.6 on easy days, usual of 1.7, hard days 1.9 to 2.2.

On my last 3 trips (one 8 days) I predicted my weight change to within half a pound using weight loss = calorie deficit/3500.

I now plan to lose 1-2 lb on a trip to reduce food weight without going too far.  No issues with hunger or fatigue so far.

I can now fit 8 days of food into a 10.5L Ursack, avoiding my 20L Ursack and its extra 4.5 oz.

The macro mix was tough to nail down with enjoyable meals that weren’t junk.

I started with Gear Skeptic’s food spreadsheet and then added dozens of ingredients I like that are calorically dense or nutritious.  I came up with ~ 40 hot soak recipes I like, each based on a comforting carb while still averaging the trip at over 125 cal/oz with 0.6g protein/lb body weight.

For breakfast I eat Quaker Harvest Crunch + Nido milk powder. It tastes great, is 130 cal/oz with decent protein and is fast to prep, eat and clean up.  So that helps.

Changing fiber didn’t help avoid constipation. In the end all that worked was consuming more water and especially not allowing prolonged dry spells after eating.  My hands and feet were swelling from the extra water but that was fixed by taking salt capsules.

The hardest part is getting enough protein.  In ’24 I’ll probably add protein supplements and drop joy-sucking TVP from recipes.

[Murali C]

Thanks David! So how much is your per day food weight now and how much was it prior to this change?

Interesting that you can calculate your weight loss so accurately! Nice!

[David D]

Hi Murali, on my Sept trip 8 days long, I was averaging about 1.25 lbs of food per day, more on hard days, less on easy (I’m 162lbs, 6′).

I planned to lose 0.9 lb total, which turned out to be almost dead on.  I reduced food weight in total by ~ 3 lbs & ~ 4.5oz in Ursack.

They were varied, tasty nutritious meals I actually wanted to eat too!  Enough carbs for comfort + dehydrated veg & protein etc and not just loading up on bars or nuts.

With this spreadsheet dialed in, planning and packing meals is really quick now.

[Brad W]

Late to this discussion but thought I would add me 2 cents. Ate a standard diet most of my life. Have been active most of my life-soccer, running, gym and hiking the last 15 years. What I have struggled with since I was about 7 is weight and energy. I felt dead after eating, drugged if you will. Then after that feeling wore off, hungry again. I followed a strict vegan diet-McDougal protocol-basically vegan with very limited fats. Lost lots of weight but had massive blood sugar swings and the same energy issues. Went back to balanced diet-chicken, vegetables including potatoes, beans, etc. Energy issues continued. Post meal blues as I called them. Regardless of these feelings, I stayed active, at least 60 min a day of walking/running/lifting and then hiking on weekends for many hours.

Cut to 5 or so years ago, during my yearly physical, numbers did not look good. High cholesterol, blood pressure, bmi and elevated triglycerides. Doc said I had 4/5 markers for metabolic syndrome and wanted me to start on cholesterol pills. That was it. I was sick of feel like crap and wasn’t going to take medicine I didn’t have to. I started reading/researching and focused on how bad I felt after eating. This is what led me to LCHF diet.

Within 1 day of my low carb(less than 50g/day) that post meal feeling was gone. No sluggish, disgusting feeling. It took me a while to get fat adapted-4-5 weeks and during that time it was difficult-even though I kept my calories up, I was starving. Things steadily improved and the intense hunger pangs started to get farther apart – to the point I actually could skip breakfast and lunch. I started just eating from 6pm when I got home to about 8pm-dinner and a snack. During the time I was not eating-most of the day-my energy levels were constant and elevated. I was not yawning all day at work, for a while I actually had trouble falling asleep at night.

Because of my poor results on the last doctors visit, they wanted to see me 2x a year. At my next appointment I had already lost 25lbs. All of lab results improved. This improvement continued for the next 3 years at which point I had zero markers for metabolic syndrome, I was at my target weight and I have never felt better. The doctor was so impressed by my progress they ask me to speak to a group the clinic had formed for people struggling with weight loss. Ever since the diet change, when I have my blood work done the metrics continue to be great.

During this lifestyle change-my hiking had improved drastically. I loved the energy and how light I felt hiking fasted. It took time to build up this endurance though-I bonked a few times hard pushing too fast, too hard, too soon. But I built up to comfortably do 25-30 miles at a fast pace fasted.

TLDR: LCHF diet has changed my life and regarding hiking, has improved the overall experience drastically. I can go further, faster and lighter by eating less and carrying less food weight. My overall health had significantly improved as well.

The only negatives for me is cramping-if I don’t take high quality electrolytes I can get severe cramps after long days-this usually happens while getting in the tent and they can be near disabling until they pass.

Anyone interested in elite athletes using low carb diet check out Zach Bitter.

Sorry to ramble on, just wanted to add my perspective.

[AK Granola]

So Brad, to clarify, you could have only one banana and one apple in your diet and no other fruits or vegetables for the day? Any more would be more than 50g of carbohydrate. Do I understand correctly what you’re saying? And the rest is all meat and cheese? Or?

I can see cutting almost all processed carbs. I’m mystified by not eating fruit and veg.

[Bill Budney]

I haven’t eaten plants in a year. They are entirely optional; not at all like the propaganda we have heard all of our lives. Nothing wrong with them if they work for you… they’re just optional. All of the nutrients that we know, for certain, that we need can be gotten from meat, eggs, dairy, and seafood (MEDS).

(That includes vitamin C. There is some in meat, and we don’t need as much when we are not eating plants.)

(It also includes fiber. The main reason for fiber is that gut bacteria ferments it into butyrate which feeds other beneficial bacteria. If we do not eat plants, then our livers make plenty of beta-hydroxybutyrate, which feeds the same beneficial flora.)

My labs are the best they have ever been. Like Brad’s report, constant energy and the freedom from having to eat all of the time are amazing. I don’t even think about lunch or snacks anymore.

[Brian W]

I have high LDL and apoB that I haven’t been able to lower by diet, so I take a statin. I’ve spoken to multiple doctors about it, and it looks like it’s genetic for me.  If I take the statin before bed, I get nightmares. If I take it in the morning along with CoQ10, I have no side effects.

I’m not sure what the right backpacking diet is for a week out each year. But I do know that I like Pringles in the mountains. And I will never eat a tuna salad sandwich ever again while hiking. Burped up fish for what seemed like hours.

My body reacts to food differently when I’m actively moving and at higher altitude.

Is this also a function of how well your body processes fats and carbs when active?

Found this:

https://andrewskurka.com/metabolic-efficiency-test-results-hiking-running/#:~:text=Test%20Overview,carbon%20dioxide%20that%20I%20exhale.

This makes me think about Peter Attia and zone 2 training. If we can rely on fats more, then this fits with the OP premise.  But we probably should get tested and know what zone most of a backpacking trip will be in.

 

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