High Fat Trail Diet

[AK Granola]

I love these threads. Everyone claims to “know” what is best, regardless of any scientific evidence at all. But if you know what works for you personally, then just do it and ignore any and all advice, at least for the duration of a hike. When I did my first marathon I got advice from a physician who does many many races of all kinds, including long distance events requiring days and weeks of stamina to keep going. She recommending eating something – usually carbs, sometimes with a bit of fat and protein – every 1/2 hour, whether I felt like it or not, and avoiding any large meals. It has worked well since for 6.5 marathons, bunches of 10ks, and plenty of hikes.

I can’t eat all those carbs at home; I’d be not just overweight but doggone plump. So I don’t. I stick to whole fresh fruits and veg and the occasional bread or sweet treat.

Extremism seems bad regardless of which weirdo American trendy eating thing is happening at the moment, let me count the fad diets during my lifetime, wow. It always seems to result in more heart disease, more cancer, more ads for Metamucil and pills to pop.

As to “The food that is being sold in most grocery stores are highly processed to make you addicted to food” — well in fact we are all pretty addicted to food. That made me chuckle! They’re highly processed so they don’t rot on the shelf, not with any intent to addict anyone to kellogg’s all bran cereal. (Not a recommended product.)

For me the most important part about packing my trail food is that I hope to enjoy eating it.

[Bill Budney]

On the other hand, some of us are well versed in the science. I didn’t post a lot of footnotes because I wasn’t writing a paper for publishing. If you have questions, ask away. Or do your own research. Most of it is on PubMed. Offhand, the only point I can think of that isn’t is from a medical conference presentation, but I have the link and timestamp for that, as well.

Agreed that “what works for you” can vary widely. I tried to say that, but perhaps not strongly enough.

[Murali C]

Thanks Bill for all the information….I like people who do their research. Of course you always want to see if it is applicable to you or want to try it. David – keep us updated on your experiments.

What do you do when there are opposing views from physicians? You have to do the research, understand the science and see what makes sense. Not all physicians keep themselves up to date on latest research.

 

 

[Bill Budney]

What do you do when there are opposing views from physicians?

Physicians are often too busy working to be able to keep up on research. Plus the medical field selects for conformity more than curiosity. Like everyone else, there is a wide spectrum of physician beliefs.

The best approach is to read the papers that they cite and come to your own conclusions about whether any specific POV considers all of the important factors. I have no idea how to do that in a reasonable amount of time. I’ve spent decades on it because my backup plan was to be an athletic coach. I wound up in engineering, but health/metabolism/performance has been a a lifelong interest.

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

One reason protein powders upset the body is what they are made of: CRAP INGREDINETS. The issue is for many people, chugging protein isolates is not normal – it isn’t whole food. For example? Pea protein is the new darling of the isolates – it’s “plant based” and “vegan friendly”. To make it they take field peas (not green peas) and grind up the entire pod. Not just the peas. That is a huge issue. That is where all the pesticides hang out. There is 1 or 2 companies that are just the peas, but it is rare. So your body is eating something you’d never eat otherwise (the pod). The other issue is pea protein can react in those allergic to peanuts, same with Lupine flour. But they don’t know it’s a potential issue – and GI issues can be an allergic reaction, you’ll never get used to it. My youngest has severe food allergies, so yeah, I found out the hard way with the peas – I fed him yellow pea butter and he had a bad reaction. At a trailhead, 50 miles away from pavement. Thankfully we always carry double the meds. Always. But he reacts to certain foods in his stomach first, not hives outside.

So anyways, be wary of protein powders. They are not and will never be real food. It’s a slurry of ground up powders.

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

“Physicians are often too busy working to be able to keep up on research. Plus the medical field selects for conformity more than curiosity.”

Oh lord yes. I learned this right up with my youngest child. I got told I was wearing a tin foil hat when he kept developing new food allergies every year. His allergist doctor said to me “If you keep testing him for new allergies he won’t have anything to eat.” Like really dude? He was supposed to keep suffering? So I fired his incompetent self. I had read studies showing that if a person has asthma, eczema and food allergies, it is the body in inflammation – and is an autoimmune issue.

I was told they didn’t believe in that. Again, why I fired that doctor.

Then I bought land and set out to grow my child much of his food.

And huh, at 11 years old he has had zero new food allergies since we moved here 5 years ago. His asthma is gone now, and his skin is nearly clear.

Many doctors don’t want to learn new things, nor to even care. (Yes, I am bitter over this)

[Bill Budney]

I can understand being bitter about that. It is unfortunate that the medical profession focuses on treating symptoms rather than curing or preventing dysfunctions in the first place.

You probably know this now, but it might have helped you if the first doc had told you that many autoimmune conditions are the result of food allergies, and that most food allergies are to plants. At least that information would have given you a hint of where to look.

I’m not saying plants are necessarily bad, and not saying that ALL autoimmunities come from plant allergies, but for an autoimmune sufferer some experimentation with eliminating common culprits makes sense. Would be nice if information like that were in the parenting class.

Having your own farm/garden is an excellent solution!

The term, “protein powder”, generally refers to whey and casein. Many/most brands are OK; just check the label for added sugar and other stuff you don’t like. There have been a ton of studies about them; overwhelmingly positive. They are staples of many athlete’s diets.

Plant protein powders are almost a different category, but are becoming increasingly available. As you say, they deserve closer scrutiny.

You’re right to be skeptical. There is a lot of bad information out there, and much of it comes from people that we expect to know better (medical professionals and their guidelines).

[Todd Stough]

“Todd – what does this statement mean? Not eating carbs, and eating lots of fat will help you burn the dietary fat which will prevent burning body fat and hence will not lose weight?”

 

Sorry I’m not great at explaining all of this.  My understanding and experience is that once you stop eating carbohydrates, I eat basically none, that you use fat as your primary source of fuel.  Be that stored fat or fat you eat.   Fat being very energy dense should allow you to pack less of it and because you easily burn fat, you won’t feel energy spikes and crashes throughout the day.  Your energy stays nice and balanced.

Bill is doing a much better job explaining it then I am.  As far as fat and bad health, it appears that most of the studies and science backing that was faked or misinterpreted to sell products.

 

[Mart]

“For people suffering from metabolic dysfunction (central adiposity, high blood pressure, elevated blood sugar, elevated triglycerides, low HDL, or cardiovascular dysfunction), then reducing carbs could prolong your life. That applies to at least half of the people in the US,…”

Perhaps even more than half the population.

It is my opinion that the government’s nutritional guidelines have been a significant contributor to our obesity and type II diabetes epidemics.

 

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

The best part about small scale farming is it counts towards homeschooling. But seriously, eat local, eat in season. Eat a lot of plants in their regular form and well raised meat/eggs on the side.

I am still fat, but I have lost 4 pant sizes since we took this on. The allergy child is the one on the right.  We have dwarf deer on our island, so all beds are low fenced, and spread across our land.

[AK Granola]

I guess it’s thread drift, but Sarah I love the photo of your garden! My kids both eat pretty healthy diets now, and I credit part of that to growing up with garden fresh food. Picking food and eating it directly is just so satisfying. I think that’s what makes it hard to eat on trail; dried up stuff is just “meh.” I have to be out for many days before my appetite kicks in enough to want to rehydrate little cubes of carrot or corn and eat them.

[Jerry Adams]

nice photo Sarah

last fall a deer ate my lettuce so now I put fencing on top that I think will keep deer from eating it

the deer didn’t eat the cilantro, garlic, and arugula so I guess I don’t need to protect them

[Jerry Adams]

“It is my opinion that the government’s nutritional guidelines have been a significant contributor to our obesity and type II diabetes epidemics.”

I think the problem was much bigger than government nutritional guidelines.  Food experts inside and outside government totally screwed up, interpreting data to believe “low fat” was good even if that meant high sugar.  Which has caused an obesity epidemic.  Although it’s complicated and probably more than just eating too much sugar.  Like are white rice and potatoes just as bad?  Japanese eat a lot of white rice but they are much healthier.

The current government advice is for half what you eat to be fruits and vegetables.  Eat whole grains, seeds,…  Minimize sugar and refined grain, saturated fat, red meat…  That seems pretty good.

[David D]

Sarah, that’s great.  I keep a large urban vegetable garden and in season eat just about every lunch from it.  I don’t save any time or money but know exactly what I’m eating.

In an urban setting it’s getting hard due to animals though.

My neighbour feeds the squirrels 40lbs of peanuts a month, and feeds the racoons cat food nightly, and like us they want a varied diet so destroy my lawn and ate all my vegetables.  Even a 5′ high fence wouldn’t protect the crops, I needed to completely enclose the garden.   I designed and built this using low cost canopy frames and deer netting, ~ 12×20 with a side section for beans.  It’s hard to see, but bottom 3′ is enclosed in galvanized 1/4″ steel mesh, or chipmunks get in and wreck everything.   It was a long trial and error process.

It worked well for a number of years but early this winter we had a hard cycle of snow and frozen rain, and the frozen rain load did a number to it:

Feeding rodents and vegetable gardening can’t coexist and cities here are starting to have serious rat and squirrel issues, making urban gardening pretty tough in a lot of areas unfortunately

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

One last thread drift :D We can see the Olympic Mountains from our land on Whidbey Island – we face towards the Salish Sea but have one low ridge between us (public hiking lands though!). This was last September, as the season was winding down.

[John S.]

History of Dietary Guidelines and Previous Editions

https://www.dietaryguidelines.gov/about-dietary-guidelines/history-dietary-guidelines

https://www.dietaryguidelines.gov/about-dietary-guidelines/previous-editions

[William Kerber]

The problem with them stating “current government advice is for half what you eat to be fruits and vegetables” is that most of them are loaded with sugar. For fruits, avocados are a great choice along with raspberries and blackberries, most others are iffy. Many vegetables are also high in sugar, unless you stick to the ones that are green leafy and/or cruciferous.

If I could only choose only two foods to eat, it would be avocados and eggs. Give me a third and I’d have a hard time choosing between wild caught salmon and grass-fed beef (with a salad).

While I do cheat every so often, I’m mostly low carb with a 50/50 split between fat and protein. Not really keto and definitely not carnivore. Although I do have some days of very high protein, when I smoke a brisket or cook up a pot roast and my wife has her fill after one meal. I also think that saturated fats are quite healthy, while seeds oils are not so much (corn, canola, etc..).

At the end of the day, it’s to each their own. If someone told me that my lifespan would increase a week, if I gave up all the foods I like, that’s not going to happen.

As for backpacking, I take jerky, tuna packets, pre-cooked bacon, hard boiled eggs, some pecans/walnuts, hard cheeses. Not many carbs. Then again, I don’t do multi-week trips nowadays.

[Jerry Adams]

I think that even though a lot of fruit has a lot of sugar, that’s okay, they also have a lot of fiber.  The combination is healthful.

I try to eat like the FDA says.  Or, a “Mediterranean diet”. or whatever you want to call it.

Also, that’s what humans ate before food started being manufactured.  And non “modern” cultures currently eat.

[AK Granola]

Unless you have some special medical need, or are allergic to fructose, eating fruit that has sugar is perfectly fine. Ditto carrots or potatoes or whatever people are freaking out about today. Moderation. Don’t eat 6 apples a day. We are well adapted to an “apple a day” and other fruit as well. It won’t raise your blood sugar long term, and the fiber and vitamins are excellent. Eat your fruit – raw, unprocessed – and don’t worry about it. Enjoy life a little! What is better than a completely ripe peach, juice dribbling down your chin? I can smell a ripe peach from 100 yards away.  Give that joy up for processed precooked bacon? You seriously think that’s healthier?

This is why I hate all the fad food diets, loads of misinformation, and just general silliness about food.  People end up eating all kinds of weird crap. Note: PubMed does not vet or peer-review the contents of journals; the quality of the journal is critical and many are not all that scientific anyway, especially in the area of nutrition, where most “studies” are funded by industry. Reader beware.

Michael Pollan really boils it down and I would bet money that his advice will still be good 100 years from now, no matter what food fads and quasi-scientific “research” happens in the meantime: “Eat Food, Mostly Plants, Not Too Much.” For those who haven’t read Pollan “eat food” means things that are actually food and not colorings, preservatives, etc., i.e., eat only things you recognize as being actual food. Mostly plants, that’s obvious and includes fruit.

And “not too much” – which is the real cause of most of our overweight and dietary issues; have you noticed how much people consume in one fast food meal? It’s absolutely astounding. One of my colleagues who weighs 350 pounds and stands 5′ 5″, eats two large servings and two sugary drinks at every meal; I have dined with her and it’s incredible to watch. I can eat only one quarter of what she eats in a meal or I’d hurl. I’m not fat shaming here; she’s an intelligent, kind and lovely person, but also dying of diabetes, which is incredibly sad and so painful for her. I’m at least 20 pounds overweight and could stand to lose more myself but giving up my apple isn’t going to change that, nor is wolfing down bacon instead. We all know what it takes and it isn’t easy for some of us. But more studies and more fads are not the answer.

If you do insist on high fat and lots of meat as your go-to diet, be sure to have your blood done every year so you know how your organs and arteries are doing. Good luck! Now it’s time for me to get outside for a brisk walk. Cheers.

[Jerry Adams]

potatoes I’m not sure about.  If all you eat is french fries, that’s about as bad as sugar.  If you eat potatoes with other vegetables, then that’s probably okay.

It’s incredibly difficult to be scientific about this.  Studies usually rely on asking people what they ate in the last 24 hours or whatever.  You can’t do a double blind study or have half the people eat one particular way for an extended period and the other half eat a different way.

“They” say that “processed food” is bad but there’s no agreement on whether it’s because of added sugar, added salt, reduced fiber, preservatives, or what.  It would be nice to know which of those is bad.

Eating too much is bad?  I wish that wasn’t true, I like to mindlessly eat.  “They” say you can’t eat too many vegetables.  Maybe if you follow the FDA advice/follow Mediterranean diet/Michael Pollan diet – whatever you want to call it, then your body will take what it needs and pass through the rest.

Unfortunately, there’s mostly just money for difficult studies if there’s a product or drug that will make a lot of money.  There’s little money for a study that shows broccoli is effective, because it’s a commodity – anyone can grow it.

[Murali C]

I think you have to be open minded. My interest started because my cholestetrol is high and my doctors have been asking me to take statins. If you read the reviews of statins, 9 out of 10 are extremely negative. So I definitely don’t want to take them. It has lots of side effects – muscle weakness etc and can push you to become diabetic. You will need to take more C0Q10 supplements etc.  I exercise a lot – I used to road bike close to 2500 to 4000 miles a year. But since it is low impact, I have been backpacking a lot and train close to 1000 miles a year with my backpack on a trail in addition to taking month long backpacking trips (500 miles or so in a year).  I am of Indian descent – and we eat lots of carbs – ridiculous amounts of carbs. Rice, Naan like rotis, bread, sugar – you name the carb – and we eat it. My kryptonite has been high cholesterol. I have been ignoring it mostly telling myself since I exercise a lot, I have nothing to worry about. I have taken “Heart health CT scan” twice – once when I was 43 and then again when I was 53 and both times I have had zero calcium deposits in my arteries which is a good thing. But, I want to get my cholesterol under control – because I am an engineer and I like data/analysis etc.  And I love to get into the nitty gritty details of the science. I have read couple of books by doctors which have talked about the problems of inflammation, insulin resistance etc and how carbs contribute to that. Several papers as well as to how correlation between cholesterol and heart attacks/strokes are not so straight forward as some will make you believe. There is also lots of hocus pocus in how statin companies use Relative Risk Reduction to inflate the goodness of their claims while using Absolute Risk to deflate the side effects.

I would recommend reading the book “The great Cholestrol myth” by Johny Bowden and Stephen Sinatra – one of them is a doctor. Or watch these videos by another doctor. It makes sense actually if you read or listen to them. I am not saying you have to believe them. I am still forming opinions. But, I want to give it a shot and see what happens if I do low carb.  One of the doctors has recommended going to 100 grams a day – and for me, it will be extremely difficult to get to that number. I want to give it a shot and see what happens. You can see results in as little as 3 months.

Videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swc4ps4iPXs and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAC9xCinLnk to understand the science behind what they are saying.

I think at the least, one should measure the right kinds of information (LDL size, LDL count, % of small LDL etc), inflammation markers etc so that you are better informed about your health rather than going with the traditional view of LDL is bad, high cholesterol is bad etc.  Or be complacent about good Cholesterol numbers.

In fact no General Physician or cardiologist could answer my question as to where is the cholesterol going if there is so much in the blood and I do not have any calcium deposits in my arteries. If you watch the videos, you will get the answer as to how it gets reabsorbed in the liver and the real problems is the oxidised small LDL that can penetrate the arteries (which are not absorbed by the liver) etc.

Anyways, the science seems solid that carbs could create various issues and if there is a way to fix that – why not try it?

[Bill Budney]

Particle size and count are the most direct tests, yes.

If you cannot get those easily, then triglyceride:HDL ratio gives you a marker of your insulin resistance. I wouldn’t be surprised if your ratio is low (healthy). hsCRP and MicroAlbumin:Creatinine ratio are markers of inflammation.

EDIT: If you get fasting glucose and insulin tests, then you can calculate HOMA-IR, which is the most common way to directly measure insulin sensitivity.

Statins are not bad if you need them. Figuring out whether you need them is, as you have discovered, on you. Most MDs follow the guidelines which are, at best, incomplete. You are asking the right questions and looking in the right direction.

Do you eat beef? If not, then yeah, you’re going to have to work a bit. But you can do it with any meat, poultry, or seafood. If you’re a vegetarian, then yes, it’s going to take a lot of work. :)  (Maybe lots of whey protein shakes?) (Oh, and eggs. You can live on eggs and cheese.)

You’re right about fat, as well. Don’t fear it; use it wisely. Saturated fat cannot oxidize, which makes it safer.

But you’re smart and motivated and more fit than most people (of any age). No doubt you’ll get to where you want to be.

 

[Bill Budney]

One more thought: 20 mile days with 2-5k vertical, repeatedly, requires high power-to-weight ratio; probably developed over decades. If your insulin sensitivity and inflammation numbers are not in the danger zone, then maybe you’re doing just fine with your current routine? Maybe, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”?

[Murali C]

Thanks Bill….I do eat chicken, fish and occasionally beef, turkey etc.

I did do a Boston blood test that measured HOMA-IR, insulin levels back in 2016. They were all fine – in the optimal range. I need to do this part of my yearly blood work/physical. I am going to add LDL particle count, LDL size, small LDL count etc. hs-CRP is another one I have started monitoring every year – which is also optimal. My fasting sugar is also good – 80-85 mostly over the years and once a 92. My Triglycerides have gone up suddenly – but my ratio of Tri/HDL is still lesser than 3. My HbA1C is 5.6 (just below the pre-diabetic range).

Every year – I see the cholesterol numbers and every year my GP will gently nudge me towards statins. Just trying to see if I can get control of that.

Of course changing anything comes with risks – like you say – why fix it if it ain’t broke. I would definitely like to get my triglyceride numbers down…

[Jerry Adams]

“because I am an engineer and I like data/analysis etc.”

that seems to be a common affliction of people on this website

my blood pressure is a bit high, like 140/85.  My doctor said I should increase my lisinopril from 10 mg to 20 mg.  I noticed my blood pressure didn’t change with the increased dose.  So now I’m doing 20 mg for several weeks, then going back to 10 mg for several weeks, repeat several times.  My BP varies from 130 to 150 from day to day so I have to do it for a while to see if there’s any effect of the lisinopril dose change and not just random variation

A couple years ago I tried taking an extra 1 teaspoon of salt per day, the recommended maximum.  It didn’t change my blood pressure.  I think some people are sensitive to salt.  If taking an extra teaspoon of salt raised my blood pressure, then if I really cut my salt it might reduce my blood pressure, but if it didn’t, then probably it’s not important to cut my salt.  I’m not a huge salt eater and severe reduction wouldn’t be a big deal, but if it doesn’t help then I wouldn’t want to waste my time on it.  My doctor was not amused – he said “you don’t want to be a lab rat do you?”.

Epidemically, if the population reduced their salt, then the health of the population on average would be improved.  But I think it wouldn’t help some people.  It’s too bad healthcare can’t be more individualized – only recommend severe salt restriction if it helps an individual.  But determining if it would help you is difficult.  We’re stuck with the recommendation that all people cut their salt.

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