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Hand Sanitizers & Parasites: Are we living in a fool's paradise?


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Home Forums General Forums Philosophy & Technique Hand Sanitizers & Parasites: Are we living in a fool's paradise?

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 57 total)
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  • #3458777
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    “CYOB is the operative principle.”

    Well I’m certainly not going to clean someone else’s…

    #3458782
    DancingBear
    BPL Member

    @dancingbear

    Locale: Central Indiana

    Also proper wiping techniques and you won’t get any fecal matter on your hands in the first place. Seams simple enough.

    Sure.  Unless you’re unfortunate enough to experience a breakthrough in TP technology.  But even if you do, soap and water take care of it just fine.

     

    #3458872
    Valerie E
    Spectator

    @wildtowner

    Locale: Grand Canyon State

    So, after this horrible experience, I’m wondering if I should change my water treatment method…

    I’ve been using various models of the Steripen ever since the product came out.  I *thought* they were great.  Now I’m not so sure…

    If I go Sawyer, maybe it should be the mini, because that’s the only model with a 0.2 micron screen (better at nabbing protozoa, apparently) – but then I’d be a hostage to low/slow flow! (yes, the alliteration is fun)  If I use the “standard” Sawyer, it’s only a 0.5 micron, which catches most of the protozoa, but maybe not all.  I took a quick look at the new Potable Aqua Electrolytic Water Filter, but you have to wait at least 30 min. after purifying to drink, and that’s not so attractive to me.

    For those who are really concerned about getting parasites (and you would be if you’d been sick like me!), what is your water treatment of choice?

    #3458926
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

    “But even if you do, soap and water take care of it just fine.”

    And of course everyone knows about singing Happy Birthday twice before rinsing your hands? Because it takes that long for soap to kill bacteria and germs. Happy birthday, you little bastards, I sing. Say hello to my little friend, a bar of soap. Wait, actually I use one of those watchamallit plastic containers full of shaved leaves of soap–I just love those. Just don’t get them wet! then I finish with Purel.

    #3458948
    ben .
    BPL Member

    @frozenintime

    for what it’s worth, i came back from the sierra in 2015 with giardia. i’d been using a sawyer squeeze. i’m not blaming the sawyer for the parasite necessarily. the fun part is that you’ll (almost) never know WHAT to blame! and the paranoia begins…

    in any event, i’ve been using a steripen ultra for the last year and quite like it.

    if i was looking to increase my peace of mind with backcountry water, i’d probably add a second method rather than replace the first one: steripen (or sawyer) + aqua mira (or bleach).

    #3458974
    Valerie E
    Spectator

    @wildtowner

    Locale: Grand Canyon State

    @frozenintime — oh joy!  So now I can’t comfort myself with the delusion that if I switch to a Sawyer, I won’t get sick!  I may try it anyway (or not).  The convenience of my Steripen Ultra is unbeatable.

    The problem with using aqua mira as a second method (in addition to the primary method), which I have done in cattle country, is that aqua mira takes a long time to work.  Four hours to kill some protozoa!  Holy cow, who has 4 hours to wait for the first sip, unless you’re hiking next to a stream, and even then, you’d be regularly hiking with at least 2L of water at all times.  30min for giardia, but the full 4hrs for crypto – ugh!

    I guess there’s no “100% certainty” for not getting sick.  But at least now I know that even if I never have diarrhea, and start to feel like I’m not digesting food easily, I’ve probably got parasites.

    #3458981
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    “But at least now I know that even if I never have diarrhea, and start to feel like I’m not digesting food easily, I’ve probably got parasites.”

    After reading all your posts, it occurs to me that you may well have picked up whichever little nasty is making you so miserable abroad, and that you will probably be able to get by backpacking here, where the risks and variety of pathogens are not nearly as great, with any of the more reliable methods, Steripen or a filter.

     

    #3458983
    Valerie E
    Spectator

    @wildtowner

    Locale: Grand Canyon State

    @ouzel — Ahahahaha, I’m heading off to Peru in a month, where I’ll hopefully be doing at least 2 treks in the backcountry!

    But if my little critters are not giardia (my GI’s nurse said those who don’t get diarrhea from giardia are “one in a million”),  — and even if they are, giardia is in many countries — then you’re likely right.  I’ve been to several developing nations, I’ve backpacked in some of them (Morocco, South Africa, and Tanzania), and I had to drink untreated water while in the backcountry in Argentina.

    #3459006
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    If the time and possibly extra fuel consumption are acceptable, how about boiling for water treatment?

    #3459008
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    “I’ve been to several developing nations, I’ve backpacked in some of them (Morocco, South Africa, and Tanzania), and I had to drink untreated water while in the backcountry in Argentina.”

    It would be really interesting to see what a tropical medicine doc came up with as to what you’re infected with.  In some of those places you’ve visited, amoeba(giardia) would be the least of your worries.  There are some really nasty parasites in Africa.  Whatever the case, I hope you get ti figured out at some point.  Meantime, best of luck down in Peru.

     

    #3459116
    ben .
    BPL Member

    @frozenintime

    yeah, i wasn’t saying that adding aqua mira would be particularly fun!

    i may be wrong, but isn’t the four hours you reference only necessary with particularly frigid water? someone who knows this info better than i do will hopefully chime in, but i was under the impression that AM works much faster than that with all but the coldest water.

    and for what it’s worth, i had giardia for ~6 months once before having any intestinal issues. i did eventually have diarrhea, though, which was the only way i knew to go to the aforementioned doctor.

     

    #3459427
    Valerie E
    Spectator

    @wildtowner

    Locale: Grand Canyon State

    Thanks to you great guys’ suggestion, I’ve had my GI forward my file to an Infectious Diseases practice.  Hopefully, they’ll “accept” my case, and I’ll have someone treating me who is more familiar with both foreign & domestic nasties!

    Oh, to finally be well…

    #3459476
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    “I’ve had my GI forward my file to an Infectious Diseases practice.  Hopefully, they’ll “accept” my case, and I’ll have someone treating me who is more familiar with both foreign & domestic nasties!”

    As a fellow human who has suffered, was cured and has seen the light, I’ll be hoping right along with you.  That was definitely a wise move on your part.  The ID guys are by far your best bet for sorting this one out.

    “Oh, to finally be well…”

    Amen, sister, amen.

    #3459545
    Diane Pinkers
    BPL Member

    @dipink

    Locale: Western Washington

    In veterinary school, we had an entire semester of Parasitology.  Our professors also taught Parasitology for the medical school–they had 1 week.  In the US, parasites have become rather rare, due to universal hygiene and wearing shoes, so the docs really don’t know what to do with them, and don’t really think about parasites as a cause.  I’ve always considered that if I came down with a nasty case of enteritis, that I would have to prompt my health care professionals to think about out-of-the-box bugs, due to high risk lifestyle of backpacking and working with animals.   I had a case of Cryptosporidiosis in vet school, contracted from working with baby calves, and hoo, boy! do not need that again, ever.

    I am admittedly a little paranoid about hand sanitation in the back country.  I generally use hand sanitizer right after bathroom duties, but prior to cooking, I perform a full handwash with soap–I carry a disposable folding dog bowl to use as a wash basin, a cut-off surgical scrub brush, and small plastic nail cleaner.

    Not carrying out used TP would be fantastic.  I can’t quite get to the point of using a backcountry bidet and wiping with hand, though.  How does one keep the run-off out of your shorts?  I’ve seen Mike Clelland!’s video, and seems like you need to pretty much undress below the waist.

    #3459577
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    “I’ve seen Mike Clelland!’s video, and seems like you need to pretty much undress below the waist.”

    I’ve yet to undress below the waist, in fact I barely go past my knees with my pants. A good squat, and not pulling them down all the way, keeps your pants out of the way. I also don’t run the water down my arm like Mike does, but just fill my hand with water at my side then quickly ‘go under’ to finish the job as many times as necessary. The important part is ensuring you only use your non-wipe hand to handle the bottles (water and soap). I then finish off with sanitizer.

    #3459636
    Greg Mihalik
    Spectator

    @greg23

    Locale: Colorado

    ^^^

    +1

    Pants to the knees, and nary a splash nor stain in the past 7 years.

    #3459891
    John S.
    BPL Member

    @jshann

    #3460018
    Alexander S
    BPL Member

    @cascadicus

    Hand sanitizers work to reduce bacteria on skin, they are not indicated for anything else.

    Hand washing will remove pathogens better than anything else. Sanitizers are meant to touch up unsoiled hands but are not meant to replace hand washing.

    #3461939
    Ben H.
    BPL Member

    @bzhayes

    Locale: No. Alabama

    For those who maintain good backcountry hygine with just soap, how to you contain the suds/residue?  Do you dig a cathole everytime you wash your hands?  I used soap back in the day, but we mistakenly believed the soap they sold at REI was fine in back country water ways.

    My current methodology is to wash hands with just water to remove any debris and then use sanitizer to hopefully remove any remaining pathogens.

    #3461985
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    “My current methodology is to wash hands with just water to remove any debris and then use sanitizer to hopefully remove any remaining pathogens.”

    +1  So far, so good after 43 seasons in the Sierra.

    #3462851
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    “I’ve been using various models of the Steripen ever since the product came out.  I *thought* they were great.  Now I’m not so sure…”

    There have been other threads on this but the only two protozoa that they claim to treat is Giardia and Cryptosporidium.  Someone who was planning a trip to Isle Royale asked them about parasites (tape worms) and other protozoa and the answer was basically “not tested against them” which in my book is, no.  I have the Sawyer Squeeze and Mini, plus a couple Steripens.  If I’m in the Cascades, I just bring the Steripen Ultra.  If in Asia where I’ve been violently sick after drinking what I suspect was tap water that was bottled at the restaurant (I broke the seal / no ice), I’ll treat water purchased from reputable sources with just the Steripen, and water purchased from street vendors with both a filter and Steripen.  If I was going to Isle Royale, I’d likely bring my Sawyer Squeeze.  TLDR, I like having options that I can modify for the location.

    “If I go Sawyer, maybe it should be the mini, because that’s the only model with a 0.2 micron screen (better at nabbing protozoa, apparently) – but then I’d be a hostage to low/slow flow! (yes, the alliteration is fun)  If I use the “standard” Sawyer, it’s only a 0.5 micron, which catches most of the protozoa, but maybe not all.  I took a quick look at the new Potable Aqua Electrolytic Water Filter, but you have to wait at least 30 min. after purifying to drink, and that’s not so attractive to me.”

    I didn’t realize that about the pore size between the two.  Good to know!

    I deployed to Pakistan in ’97 where we all got pretty sick and there was never a diagnosis.  I’m sure doing a river raid and swimming across a canal several times that had raw sewage in it along with a dead bloated dog that floated through our formation didn’t help.  I keep in touch with several guys and we all agree that our stomach has never been the same since then.  Like Tom mentioned, I think most US based physicians are reluctant to prescribe medication absent a positive test, vs physicians overseas that will consider circumstantial evidence to support prescribing the medication.

    In a lot of ways, the US is one of the worst places for infection control and treatment regardless if it’s a parasite, lyme disease, or TB.  It’s not uncommon in my occupation but I’ve been exposed to active TB and it was a real PITA to find a physician that even knew how to handle it.  I probably would’ve been better off seeing a Dr. in India, although I finally found a Nurse Practitioner locally who knew her stuff and ensured I was properly screened.

    Good luck with your treatment and hopefully this will provide you with long term relief.

    Edit to add: I bring both soap and hand sanitizer, and am trying to go TP free in the back country although I still use TP from time to time.  In my view, field sanitation is worth the modest weight penalty.  A small tube of Dr. B’s doesn’t weigh all that much.

    #3462884
    DancingBear
    BPL Member

    @dancingbear

    Locale: Central Indiana

    For those who maintain good backcountry hygine with just soap, how to you contain the suds/residue?  Do you dig a cathole everytime you wash your hands?  I used soap back in the day, but we mistakenly believed the soap they sold at REI was fine in back country water ways.

    I don’t dig a cathole, but I do make sure that I’m 200′ (about 60m for our metric friends) from any watercourse.  If I’m in an established campsite with a fire ring I rinse into the fire ring, if not I use an area with absorbent soil.

     

    #3462887
    Jack R. Abbit
    BPL Member

    @kuhlwind

    Locale: Just over the Edge

    Hello Valerie,

    When I travel I use a hand purifier. At one time I was trying to get this in hospitals and restaurants as a spray. It kills bacteria, viruses and fungus upon contact. How it works is like a microscopic “bed of nails” and the baddies lose all their fluids., and die. Harmless to humans and our skin.

    The kicker is it would work on counter tops and door knobs for six months or more. On skin just 24 hrs, and thru a bunch of hand washing’s.

    http://www.qoresystems.com/products/

    I’m jealous of you going to Peru. I about didn’t comeback. Have fun!  Jack

    #3462903
    Valerie E
    Spectator

    @wildtowner

    Locale: Grand Canyon State

    @discopants – Well, Ian, funny you should mention “seeing a Dr. in India” — the GI specialist who thought it worthwhile to “try” tinidazole even though my tests were negative is named “Banerjee” and hails from India!  Circumstantial evidence was exactly the reason he cited for trying the meds.  Looks like I was lucky on that score. :^)  We’ll see what the US-born Infectious Disease gal says on Friday — hopefully I’ll be popping pills for a full anti-parasite protocol by the weekend!  Scary that you got contaminated water in a supposedly “sealed” water bottle.  Maybe I should bring my Steripen to Peru…

    “In a lot of ways, the US is one of the worst places for infection control and treatment ” — from my recent research, many in the medical field would agree with you.  US physicians tend to under-diagnose these types of diseases because they assume that sanitation in the US would preclude that type of contagion.  Of course “most people” aren’t long-distance backpackers, so they’re probably still correct for “most people”… who knew that getting exercise out in the wilderness qualified as a “risky lifestyle”? I thought it was healthy!  ;^)


    @kuhlwind
    — Wow, I am TOTALLY buying that Qore24 stuff (available at my local Walgreen’s, even!).  Looks like I’ll be adding a few ounces to my toiletries kit, but 100% worth it IMHO — I think I’ll bring it on my travels, too.  Thank you for bringing it to my attention!

    #3462907
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    re qoresystems

    I would want to see independant test lab reports before I believed any of that.
    They claim ‘EPA approval’, but to the best of my knowledge the EPA does NOT ‘approve’ such things. The EPA just sets the rules; the test labs can then certify whether something meets those rules.

    Yeah, I am old, cynical and suspicious.

    Cheers

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