FUTURELIGHT

[Jeff Hollis]

I hope this new technology from TNF and it’s partner live up to it’s claim. If so it would up end the waterproof/breathable discussion.

https://gearjunkie.com/the-north-face-futurelight-breathable-fabric

Jeff

 

[J-L]

It does sound like it would make a nice rain jacket fabric. I wonder what the weights and cost will be? Maybe some new WPB bivy designs?

From the article:

The moisture vapor transmission rate (MVTR) is 75,000 g/m²/day. For context, the highly breathable eVent fabric has a top MVTR of 30,000 g/m²/day. That means a lot of water vapor can move through FUTURELIGHT products quickly. It also allows air to move through it quickly, at a rate of about 1.5 ft³/minute.

1.5 CFM would be very breathable for a rain jacket, but I can still overwhelm windshirts with a 10 CFM rating. Add in some pit zips though, and that might convince me to leave my windshirt at home.

[Stephen Seeber]

We’ll see.  We seem to be in an MVTR arms race.  The highest claim I have seen is Porelle Extreme, which claims 120000 g/m2/24hours.  That is the equivalent of 11 lbs of water per hour or 1.375 gallons of water per hour/meter square of fabric.  It is difficult to envision that much water vapor diffusing through a membrane.  What is most important is to determine what test is done to come up with this number and what vapor pressure differences are used to obtain such results.  Most manufacturer’s don’t reveal their testing method or the test conditions.  As a result, we have no little idea how the garment will perform in real life.  Especially since membrane performance can vary according to temperature and humidity conditions.  Like John H, I will overwhelm any water proof/breathable membrane I have tried during periods of high effort.  If these things show up with pit zips, I guess we will have our answer.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Better than eVent? If so the uses will be many:

1. single wall tents (no need for an inner wall)
2. shells for seam welded down and synthetic puffy clothing
3. sleeping bag shells
4. WPB liners for shoes and boots

BUT… will it be more expensive than Gore-Tex Pro Shell?

BTW, why is it I see fewer eVent clothes than before?  I like my eVent rain suit.

[Brad Rogers]

1.) Gore Tex has pushed eVent out of the market.  Montane REI and Mountain Hardwear have moved from eVent to GTX Gore will not let you sell there products if you also sell eVent

2.) Some of the newer GTX fabrics (Pro Shell? Active?) have caught up with eVent.

3.) GE (who owns eVent) is in financial trouble.

4.) Possible durability issues??? 2 of the 3 eVent products I own delaminated.  One, an REI jacket used around town is still ok.

[John S.]

Tha seems monopolistic of Gore?

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I’m not optimistic there’s much value here even if the claims are true.

If it’s not raining, this membrane is still way behind a windshirt. It’s 1.5 CFM whereas my favourite windshirts are about 50 CFM. So this isn’t going to feel anything like a good windshirt.

If it’s is raining, then the humidity outside is almost certainly 100% and very little moisture transport will be possible regardless of how good the breathability is because you need a humidity differential for breathing to occur (yeah body heat helps a bit but not much). So it’ll still feel like any other rain jacket in the rain. By far the most important thing in the rain is that the material is reliably waterproof, since all the breathing in the world isn’t going to overcome even a little leaking. So at best it’s like a rain jacket + bad windshirt.

I think pursuing ever higher breathability in waterproof gear is largely a misguided adventure. Too often these garments sacrifice quality waterproofness in the rain, just to do a poor job of replicating what a 2oz windshirt can do when it’s not raining. Very little potential gain over a rain jacket + 2oz windshirt combo.  IMO, it’s better to have something solidly waterproof. It doesn’t sound like this stuff is really that waterproof because they aren’t making very clear claims there, but even if it is, I think the overall improvement would just be marginal. Perhaps a small advantage on rainy trips where it stops raining every now and then so you can dry out a bit, but don’t want to bother switching to a windshirt.

I guess I’ve just been burned too many times – every time someone comes out claiming breakthroughs in breathability it ends up that it’s not waterproof enough and then there I am in the rain, soaking wet in the “most breathable” jacket because it can’t also keep rain out after a few uses.

[Edward John M]

To add to Dans pertinent comments such UL fabrics are not really stormproof either as the fabrics are simply not stiff enough to counter wind pressure. Although weathering such conditions isn’t usually what UL gear is good at/ designed for it happens sometimes that people find themselves in such circumstances

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

If it’s is raining, then the humidity outside is almost certainly 100%

Instead of explaining it myself, read this: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-257644.html

[Ken Thompson]

Well even 90% is humid enough.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Interesting read. I stand corrected on my statement that rain equates 100% humidity at ground level. As Ken said though, even if it is 90 – 97% that’s still not much of a capacity to take on additional moisture. And you would need a solidly functioning DWR to realize even that because a failed DWR means a soaked outer nylon layer which would be at 100% humidity.

[Dan Madden]

Often confused with air permeability, breathability is by far the most misunderstood term in the outdoor industry… while the two are similar, they are completely different in function. Air permeability is the passage of air (most often wind) from the outside of a garment to the inside and is measured in Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM). Breathability is the movement of moisture vapor from the skin to the outside, often through multiple layers of clothing. The confusion arises from how breathability is measured. The only reliable way to measure breathability is the Sweating Hot Plate which measures resistance of a barrier to the transport of moisture vapor to the outside, i.e., the higher the resistance, the lower the breathability of a barrier is said to be, be it a t-shirt or shell garment. This test is accepted globally by leading labs such as Natick, Hohenstein Institute, Kansas State, etc. The main reason it is so widely accepted is that the data correlates well with human subject testing because unlike MVTR data, the resistance doesn’t doesn’t change with climatic conditions, plus the numbers are cumulative (read: layers). MVTR test data is simply lab data used by fabric manufacturers as an internal quality control test. For the sake of consistency, these tests are performed under tightly controlled environmental conditions. The main issues with MVTR numbers are: 1) there at least 10 different MVTR test, e.g., inverted cup, upright cup, etc., with each test giving widely different results – a real bonus to the marketing department since they can use the ‘best’ test numbers to make their products look great; and 2) if you change the lab conditions, then guess what? the MVTR data also changes which in turn means it has no correlation to human subject testing since we all live in a constantly changing environment.

The other issue with understanding breathability is that machines don’t wear garments, people do – and each person has a different perception of what ‘comfort’ feels like. This, coupled with unrealistic expectations, creates the world of ‘my garment doesn’t breathe’. The real issue however, is that most garments actually do ‘breathe’, albeit at different rates, but not nearly fast enough to handle the moisture vapor that your skin is producing under strenuous conditions – in fact, a wicking t-shirt can’t handle most of the moisture vapor the skin produces during strenuous activities… so why would you expect a waterproof/breathable shell to be some sort of ‘air conditioned, climate controlled’ garment?

The key to breathability is the strength of the ‘driving force’ within a garment, i.e., high heat/humidity seeks to equalize itself with low heat/humidity. If this doesn’t or can’t take place, then breathability doesn’t occur – but it’s always nice to be able to blame something other than the laws of physics. As an example, if you are skiing at Jackson Hole and the ambient temperature is 25 degrees F and your skin temperature is 94 degrees F, then you have a strong driving force (assuming you haven’t overdressed). Conversely, if you are hiking the AT in mid-July and the ambient temperature is 90 degrees F and your skin temperature is 96 degrees F, then there is no driving force – especially if it is raining since humidity levels are very high – in this case, an umbrella is highly recommended.

So what does all of this have to do with FUTURELIGHT? Very simply… MVTR numbers, etc., really mean nothing except they are a huge bonus for the marketing dept. As noted before, machines don’t wear garments, people do and at the end of the day, the proof will be in wearing these garments and how they meet your expectations. It’s also important to remember that the ‘testers’ are paid TNF athletes and/or received the garment for free…so what would expect them to say?

[Greg Mihalik]

MVTR – Moisture Vapor Transfer Rate

[bradmacmt]

I remain skeptical. I got my first Goretex jacket in 1978… frankly, nothing today is that much better. Marginally better, yes. Significantly better, no. So from that perspective, calling this new TNF fabric a “game changer” strikes me as the usual schlocky marketing hype. I applaud TNFnfor pushing forward with something new, but let’s face it… a lot of this is just trying to get out from under Gore’s Vatican-like fist for financial relief.

[Mark Verber]

Mostly agree with what people have said already.  Air permiability is a much better predictor of comfort than  MVTR numbers, especially when engaged in heavy work.  In 2005 there was a nice note from Patagonia called Percent of Naked which touched on this and and there are some papers about this topic which are behind paywalls.

I would beg to differ with the assertion that current products are not significantly better than the Gore-Tex of 1978.  While I believe most claims about breathability are exaggerated, there has been significant progress.  The light formulation of GoreTex Shakedry used in the ArcTeryx Norvan SL is pretty amazing. It’s too fragile for backpacking, and the front zipper leaks too much, but the rest of my body stays dry even when working hard in moderate temperatures. I would welcome something that equals this performance without the flaws. I have hopes for future light, but plan to let others give it a try before I drop that kind of cash.

–Mark

 

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

If the information I found indeed points to this, it’s not very different from NeoShell. The biggest difference is that NeoShell is made through a process called electrospinning and this through a process called forcespinning which should mean that Futurelight is more durable.

[Hanz B]

this really was a nice 1 hour listen on futurelight, a q & a with Scott Mellin, the Global General Manager of Mountain Sports at The North Face. so skip the first 5 minutes. But really nice discussion on the different weights they spin out of the PU itself to affect CFM, and he discusses durability of futurelight.

not sure if it will replace my 3L gore pro yet but I’m thinking about it.

https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/what-is-the-north-face-futurelight-ep-74

[Ross Bleakney]

I think pursuing ever higher breathability in waterproof gear is largely a misguided adventure. Too often these garments sacrifice quality waterproofness in the rain, just to do a poor job of replicating what a 2oz windshirt can do when it’s not raining. Very little potential gain over a rain jacket + 2oz windshirt combo. IMO, it’s better to have something solidly waterproof.

I agree. On the other hand, a very breathable windshirt is a different matter. I would love to have a lightweight, very air permeable, breathable garment, hopefully in a light color (white would be ideal). Call it a windshirt if you want, but its main purpose would be to protect against bugs and the sun.

This just sounds like hyperware. If I’m backpacking, and every ounce counts, why would I replace my lightweight jacket? I usually hike in the west coast of North America, and that means that when it rains, I usually have fleece or a puffy jacket underneath. As long as it isn’t too clammy, I don’t really care about breathability. Half the time it is stuck in my pack anyway. If I really cared that much, I would carry an umbrella, or use a poncho.

More than anything, I think the idea that “you won’t take it off” to be ridiculous. I bought a Patogonia Nano Air because it was “a fleece killer“. It is a fine jacket. But to suggest that it has anywhere near the breathability (or air permeability) of fleece is crazy. It hasn’t killed my fleece, it has just made my decisions a bit more complicated, as I try to justify a purchase I could have lived without. I use it only for cross country skiing, when I sweat a lot, need the warmth, and fleece’s biggest weakness (the fact that it soaks up any precipitation) is a major downfall. But unless there is a good chance of a heavy rain/snow mix (which is common in the Northwest) it sits in the car, and I grab my fleece.

For backpacking, I rely on my Oware (BPL branded) puffy jacket, which has a great warmth to weight ratio, and is otherwise just fine.

The point is, there are very few big breakthroughs when it comes to gear (Cuben, NeoAir, carbon fiber poles) and this doesn’t look like one.

 

 

 

[Stephen Seeber]

Here is my take on Futurelight, that I posted a while back.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgxodiuxotssih/

Bottom line: I don’t really see how this moves the bar beyond Neoshell or Ascentshell.  The HH is considerably lower than Gore Pro.  However, with a big enough marketing budget, which they have, you can move the hype if not the performance.

I see this paper does not include Ascentshell from OR.  If anyone is interested, let me know and I will post those numbers.

[Hanz B]

I think testing one jacket won’t do FL justice. In the link above to the discussion with the head designer, he emphasized that the PU can be applied at like 8 different spin and backed on any 3L combination they want to use,  in house.
So in other words, they don’t need to order from the catalog gore or gor pro and try to make it work across multiple use case scenarios.

My interpretation is that will they will be able to design HH and CFM for each garment in combInation with durability. This seems like a very different approach to me. But we will see. I agree that so far a FL jacket that meets most UL backpackers goals hasn’t been produced. I’m confident there will be an extremely light, more breathable kind of montane 777 competitor made of FL. Then it would be great to compare those.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

@StephenS

• yes, I’m interested in those Ascentshell-numbers
• for FL TNF used a new way of electrospinning called forcespinning

[Stephen Seeber]

Hi Woubeir:

Here you go.  Remember, the MVTR numbers are unique to my test method.  For reference, I added a Gore Pro sample.  As you can see, as a group, they are pretty similar.  You can see that my 2015 Neoshell jacket has held up pretty well despite a lot of use.

[Stephen Seeber]

Duplicate.

[Stephen Seeber]

Hi Hans:

I listened to the podcast.  It provides a fascinating insight into their development process as well as the resources NF brings to bear on bringing a product to market.  Scott Mellin is a very articulate and informed spokesman for his brand.

So NF has multiple membrane in different weights and they can combine them with different face and backer fabrics.  The problem is there is no discussion as to how they actually impact performance in a measurable way.  Without quantification, it is just marketing claims.

For example, in the podcast, Scott Mellin describes the water proofing testing conducted by UL, using a “modified” UL standard for testing 1st responder gear.  The conclusion of the test is that FL it is in fact fully waterproof.  What does that mean?  What is the HH to which they were testing?  How well does the product maintain that HH over time?  We don’t know.  My personal experience with Neoshell is that I got wet during winter hiking from sliding or sitting on snow.  New Neoshell and new FL had similar HH performance in my test and the HH is way less than Gore Pro.  NF has published some MVTR data but I don’t think they have published any HH data.

In the podcast, Scott spends a lot of time discussing the ability to manipulate the components of the completed composite.  He spends no time describing how the manipulations quantitatively impact MVTR, HH or Air Permeability.  Are any of these changes perceptible by a user?

Concerning MVTR.  In the beginning of the discussion, Scott describes how the overarching goal of developing FL is to produce a shell that an athlete would never have to take off.  Have any of you ever experienced such a shell?  I haven’t.  In my collection of WPB fabrics or shells I have tested, I have 8 with higher MVTR.  I own two of these and given the conditions and level of exertion, I may have to take them off.  Nothing I am familiar with has  a high enough MVTR to expel moisture as fast as I or others can produce it.

What about their claims of air permeability?  I measured 1.1 CFM/Ft2 on their Flight jacket.  That is a jacket marketed to runners.     In this post https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/165/#post-1335535  Patagonia claims that any garment below 5 CFM/Ft2 is functionally windproof.  If so, than what benefit can the air permeability ratings of FL offer?

Admittedly, I have only looked at one of their product offerings.  But, how can they have better MVTR or Air Permeability than what they build into their running product?  There was a question asked about overcoming consumer skepticism over a new product and Scott talked about warranty and testing.  But no facts and figures from the testing are forthcoming.  Until they are, I will remain skeptical consumer.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

@StephenS

Did you ever had the opportunity to test a Gore Shakedry-jacket ?

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