Fuel in "8oz" size Isobutane canisters

[Brad Rogers]

I haven’t used a canister stove since 2008 other than on one trip during a burn ban, but am going to be using one on a future trip and am way out of the loop on fuel canisters.  Back when I used them MSR fuel was sold as 4oz canisters and were short and wide, and the Snow Peak fuel was made in Japan.  It looks like all canisters are now made in Korea but the same 8oz canisters appear to have up to 3 different amounts of fuel between them:

According to what I have found, the Snow Peak Gold canisters are 5.2oz empty and have 250g of fuel?  Is this accurate?

The data I have is that the old Japanese Snow Peak Red Canisters are 5.3oz empty and had 220g of fuel.

The MSR Canisters seem to have 227g of fuel.

I am planning a trip where I am calculating using 219g of fuel so I would prefer to take a 250g canister so I have some margin.

 

[Bob Moulder]

A link here to SP ‘Gold 250’ which indicates in the specs that it contains 220g of fuel.

The 220g to 230g size canisters weigh 150g (+/-1.5g or so) empty, and the total weight for this SP Gold 250 is listed as 370g, so they definitely contain 220g of fuel. I’m not exactly sure where the 250 number comes from or why they would even use that because of the potential for misunderstanding. AFAIK the Primus canisters with 230g of fuel have the most among the available commercial blends.

It depends upon how much you trust your calculations or whether you want a little ‘cushion’ with the 230g canisters or a lot of cushion in which case you could take an additional 110g canister or partially filled 110g canister. Thing is, the 110g canisters weigh about 100g empty, so obviously there’s a significant weight penalty even if it has only 30g of fuel in it.

 

[Brad Rogers]

Your right, when I subtract their total canister weight from the empty canister weight I get 219g.

Ironically, it states 250g size in the description on the Snow Peak website.

I think I have some “fat” in my calculations but I need to verify them to ensure that I will have enough.

 

[Gary Dunckel]

Brad, I think the way for you to go is to do the MSR 8 oz. canisters. Full, they weigh 12.45 oz, and they are the lightest dead weight  when empty at 4.7 oz. For comparison, Jetboils’s canisters are 13.4 oz. full, and 5.3 oz. empty. The amount of fuel is about the same for both. The MSR IsoPro fuel is 20% propane and 80% isobutane, and Jetboil’s is 25% propane/75% isobutane. Both are fine for 3-season use, but I would prefer the Jetboil (with its extra propane) if I thought the night time temps might drop down below +20 * F. For the Snow peak canisters, their proportions are 15% propane/85% isobutane (also 13.4 oz. full, 5.3 oz. empty, if I remember correctly). They are good for 3-season use, and they are often a bit cheaper.

So for me, the MSR 8 oz. canisters can’t be beat, overall.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Well, I’ve got good news and I’ve got bad news.  The good news is that you don’t have to worry a lot about selecting which canister is lighter.

The bad news is that no “8 oz” canister that I know of contains more than 227g.

Why do I say you don’t have to worry about which is lightest?  Well, unless you have some old ones, they’re pretty much all made by the same manufacturer these days.

A few years ago, I noticed MSR changed the shape of their canisters, the hue of their red color and their caps instead of flat were more raised and came to a square on top.  The following year, Snow Peak Canisters, which had relatively flat caps with “Snow Peak” molded into them became… you guessed it, more raised and came to a square and top, and whereas they had always been labeled “made in Japan”, they now were clearly labeled “made in South Korea”.

Curious, I started looking at a number of different brands.  They all had the same caps, and the shapes were all now the same.

I looked at Primus, Optimus, Olicamp, MSR, Jetboil, Brunton, Snow Peak, and Burton.  All of those brands now had the same caps and the same canister shape, and all were made in South Korea.  The only exception I could find was Coleman which is made in France.

It was pretty clear to me that whereas there had been a diversity of canister caps, countries of origin, and canister shapes, there was now only one.  They were all now being made by the same manufacturer.

A little research revealed that the Taeyang Industrial Co. Ltd. of South Korea was the largest manufacturer of gas canisters in the world.  Then, I found this on line:

The cap?  You guessed it, raised and coming to a square at the top, and unlike many of the major brands who for whatever reason don’t want to let on (and I have asked, directly) who makes their canisters, Kovea prints it right on the side of the canister:  “Taeyang Industrial Co. Ltd.”.

So, it doesn’t much matter which canister you choose in terms of empty weight (unless you’ve got some old ones).

The blends still do differ.  Which blend you get doesn’t much matter above 50F/10C, but when it gets colder, it does matter.  Basically, you want to get a brand that doesn’t have plain butane.  Having more propane is great, but if you have a choice between more propane but contains any significant percentage of plain butane vs. less propane but no plain butane (in other words, just isobutane), chose the one with less propane but no plain butane.  Currently, Olicamp has the best cold weather blend available that I know about in the US market:  25% propane, 75% isobutane.

HJ

[Gary Dunckel]

That is good information, Jim. I’m sure the OP will appreciate it, as well as anyone else. If I might, I’d like to add a few things. First off, the 8 oz. Jetboil canisters appear to be identical to the Olicamp ones–230 gm of fuel, 25% propane/75% iso-butane, full canister weight 13.4 oz. and empty weight 5.3 oz. (actually, I haven’t emptied my first 8 oz. Olicamp yet to measure it, but the 4 oz. canisters weigh the same when full and empty). Also, these two brands claim to have 230 gm. of fuel in their 8 oz. canisters. If that’s true, they contain the most fuel of any of the brands.

I agree that the Korean company probably fills all the canisters, except the Coleman and Camping Gaz ones (France?). However, the MSR Isopro canisters seem to be a bit different. They might be made by another company, or at least manufactured to MSR’s unique specs. They are lighter weight canisters–4.7 oz. empty, vs. 5.2 to 5.5 oz. for the Camping Gaz (5.2 oz.), Jetboil, and likely the Olicamp (5.3 oz.), and Primus (5.5 oz.). When full, the MSR 8 oz. canisters weigh 12.45 oz., vs. the others at 13.2-13.4 oz.

Jim, do you know what the fuel types/percentages are for Primus and Camping Gaz? I suspect that there’s a bit of butane in both. I do know that Optimus used to be 25% propane/75% butane, but a couple years ago they switched to 25% propane/25% iso-butane/50% butane.

 

[Roger Caffin]

Campingaz canisters are ‘made in France’ according to the label on them. I have always found their gas to be clean and reliable.

I don’t think worrying about the exact details of the gas is all that useful myself. Sure, I never take straight n-butane, but there is not a lot of difference in performance between the propane blends. The reason is the commonality between most of the canisters: they are all rated to about the same pressure. That means they all have roughly similar performance, once you exclude the ‘tourist’ summer versions. Only the printing and the colour of the cap change.

What would worry me is the reliance Brad is putting on his calculations. We were up in the mountains last week. It was a shade colder than I was expecting – early summer but it was sub-zero every night. I normally allow 30 g per day of gas for the two of us locally (near the coast) in the summer, and I foolishly assumed that figure for the mountains. I used about 44 g/day. More warm water in the evenings for dinner, and a warm breakfast rather than a cold one. The canister was close to empty when we returned.

Therre is light, ultra-light, and stupid-light.

Cheers

[Gary Dunckel]

Roger, my buddy and I also consume about 30 grams of canister fuel per day, at elevations of 8500-9500 feet. So one 4-ounce canister provides a nice cushion for 2 nights out.

But once, things didn’t go quite so well. I was by myself on a 2-night outing, at about 9000′. When I fired up a brand new 4 oz. Snow Peak canister for the first night’s dinner, there was a big flame ball. It took me a few seconds to turn the stove off, and it turned out that a LOT of fuel had burned. I didn’t have enough fuel remaining on the last morning to boil water for my second cup of coffee, and I had to eat my breakfast cold. For a couple years after that, instead of taking one 8 oz. canister for longer trips, I would insist on taking two 4 oz. canisters instead, in case of another wasteful flare-up. 40-50 canisters later without incident, I now have faith in the single canister approach. But sometimes bad things can happen, and it’s good to have some sort of backup plan. In my case, I usually take along one of my .5 oz. mini grills and a few Esbit tablets, just in case (I know, I know, packing my insecurities…).

But rather than drifting into anecdotes, here’s the propane/iso-butane breakdown of my preferred canister fuels:

Snow peak:  15%/85%

MSR Isopro:   20%/80%

Jetboil:   25%/75%   (Olicamp is the same)

Note that Jetboil (and Olicamp) only put 100 gm. of fuel into their 4 oz. canisters, whereas SP and MSR have 110 gm. Presumedly, this is a safety measure due to the added partial pressure from the extra propane. However, in the larger 8 oz. canisters JB and Olicamp have 230 gm. of fuel compared to MSR’s 227 gm. The larger canisters must be inherently stronger?

I wonder how many grams of n-butane our buddy Bob Moulder could manage to put into one of the 8 oz. canisters. Why don’t you try for 300 gm., Bob? If you do that (and live), we’ll give you a special BPL prize. If that “live” part doesn’t quite work out, we’ll give you the first ever Darwin Caffin Award, for pushing the scientific envelope of canisterness.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Gary

I don’t know why the different brands apparently leave different amounts of air space in the approximately similar canisters. Perhaps the Korean filling company really does have several variants?

first ever Darwin Caffin Award, for pushing the scientific envelope of canisterness.
I am intrigued by this extension of the English language: canisterness.  :-)

Cheers

[Brad Rogers]

Thanks for all of the information – it is fantastic information.  There does seem to be a discrepancy as to how much MSR canisters weigh, so they next time I go to the outfitter, I may have to buy one and weigh it myself.

The only 8oz canister I have is a Snow Peak  red version- made in Japan version from ~2007 and it is model 250G and is clearly labeled 220g.  Even when I used canister stoves a lot I rarely got 8oz canisters as I usually used 4oz MSR’s (the old short wide ones) or the 110g Snowpeaks.

I am planning on using the stove for 2 people for 12 days and have assumed 2 boils per person per day.  I really think I can do a lot of the days in one boil (I think we will use 8 oz each for breakfast – 16oz total) for example – so that would be one boil instead of two.  I need to do some additional testing and calculating as I would like to have a 20% contingency just in case.  I will also have the following contingencies in place

1. I will be with a couple of other hikers and probably two other canister stoves.  We may carry one contingency canister between us in case someone uses more fuel than calculated.
2. If I get in the field and feel like I am using more fuel than anticipated, I will skip hot breakfasts (I don’t do breakfasts or coffee on solo trips anyways) and save fuel for dinners.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Brad

Our typical fuel consumption in good weather is ~30 g/day for the two of us. We were buying the large 450 g Camping Gas canisters when doing several traverses of the Pyrenees in Europe in their summer time, and they were lasting us a shade over 14 days each time.

Cheers

[Brad Rogers]

I will be using a BRS 3000T (Wow that thing is tiny and light compared to my old Snow Peak Gigapower) with a jetboil pot (I found a new Jetboil Sol Ti Companion cup for $45.) and am hoping to be able to boil 16oz of water with 5g of fuel.  If I can do that I will use 15g of fuel per day.  Like I said, I need to do some testing once I get the pot here to ensure I can get the fuel usage, but it seems that most everyone seems to be able to get boils using 5g of fuel.

If I have to take two 220g canisters, I would probably be better off to stay with my caldera cone.

[Gary Dunckel]

Brad, you might want one of these to allow the BRS-3000T to work properly with your Ti Sol:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/104518/

[Bob Moulder]

Gary if you (the creator of it) had not mentioned the disk riser I was going to because the BRS-3000T definitely runs a lot better with it when used with JB pots… otherwise the burner is starved for O2 and doesn’t burn as well.

Best performance I ever got was using a BRS with MiniMo pot and disk riser. Boiled 3 cups of fairly cool water (I’ve got the °F on record somewhere) with 6.3g of fuel. Never actually tested that in the field, but even in controlled conditions in my lab (my back deck, as per usual) that is pretty darn good. Most efficient between about 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. Full throttle is wasteful.

[Gary Dunckel]

I agree with everything you said, Bob, especially about the flame setting. I have also had a few 2-cup boils of 50* F water on a 50* F day where I used just 4.2 gm. of fuel (= 6.3 gm. for 3 cups). Great efficiency, at a very low weight. My JB ti Sol setup, with a full 4 oz. canister, weighs just 13.9 oz. That’s just a couple of ounces more than my 2-night alcohol cone kit. There IS just one thing I must correct you on: the disk riser is technically called “the Thingy.”–everybody knows that. Such sacrilege!

Bob, would you do me a favor? I had sent a BPL PM to Brad, but so far no response. I have had problems with sending, but mostly receiving, PMs here. Would you mind sending me one as a test, then follow it up with a regular e-mail so that I’ll know that you did it? Much appreciated.

[Jerry Adams]

If you run stove slow, it’s more efficient.  Like 4 minutes rather than 3 minutes will save 10% of the fuel

You can also save 10% by only heating to 190 F rather than 212 F

If you have 220 g (or 227) and you figure you need 119 g, use one of those techniques to use a little less fuel

The last couple pints boiled are very slow so you have to figure that in

[Brad Rogers]

Coming from a Alcohol stove, speed is of little concern to me.

[Hikin’ Jim]

… the 8 oz. Jetboil canisters appear to be identical to the Olicamp ones–230 gm of fuel, 25% propane/75% iso-butane

Gary, can you cite a source for the percentages you’re quoting for Jetboil?  I’ve always heard that Jetboil’s was 80/20, but I have not been able to verify it.  I haven’t ever heard that Jetboil was 75/25.

MSR Isopro canisters seem to be a bit different. They might be made by another company, or at least manufactured to MSR’s unique specs. They are lighter weight canisters–4.7 oz. empty, vs. 5.2 to 5.5 oz. for the Camping Gaz (5.2 oz.), Jetboil, and likely the Olicamp (5.3 oz.), and Primus (5.5 oz.). When full, the MSR 8 oz. canisters weigh 12.45 oz., vs. the others at 13.2-13.4 oz.

Hmm.  That’s very odd.  How old are these MSR canisters and what do their caps look like?

Jim, do you know what the fuel types/percentages are for Primus and Camping Gaz? I suspect that there’s a bit of butane in both.

Primus is 25 % propane, 25 % isobutane, and 50 % butane per their website.  They have different blends but the 25/25/50 is what’s available in North America.

Camping Gaz is no longer available in North America, but I believe that they are n-butane and propane only with no isobutane.  Coleman canisters which are manufactured at the Camping Gaz plant in France (Coleman bought Camping Gaz some time ago; Coleman was in turn bought out by Jardin) are 70/30 n-butane/propane.

HJ

[Hikin’ Jim]

Gary,

You got me curious, so I pulled out some old MSR 8 oz/227 g canisters.   They weigh 4.7 oz.  I think the ones you have are old, but I’m not 100% sure because I don’t have any new empty MSR 8 oz canisters that I can weigh.

I weighed a Jetboil 8 oz, and it was 5.2 oz empty.

I weighed some empty Optimus, MSR, Jetboil, and Snow Peak “4 oz” (100 g to 110 g, depending on the brand).  There were variances, but all were about 3.5 oz (one weighed 3.6 oz).

HJ

[Gary Dunckel]

Jim, my only source for the percentages of fuel in a Jetboil canister was from the CS gal at Jetboil, who had to ask around to get the “exact” numbers. This was before 2012, when Johnson Outdoors bought out the company. The numbers she gave me were pretty precise, down to 3 decimal points (which Roger C. scoffed at, saying no one could be that accurate). Rounded off, they were 74% iso-butane, 25% propane, and 1% n-butane. I expect that every batch would be slightly different.

Yes, my 8 oz. MSR canisters are probably 12-15 years old, and they have the flat plastic cap. Each empty canister with the cap weighs 4.7 oz. I will likely never again buy an MSR 8 oz. canister, mainly because I still have 10 left from that original case of 24, and also because I think that Jetboil and Olicamp are superior due to their higher propane content.

My empty 4 oz. canister (new) weights concur with yours, Jim. The MSR is the only one that comes in at 3.6 oz, with all the others being 3.5-3.55 oz. (with the caps on).

Next Tuesday night I will do my head-to-head comparison test of 4 oz. canisters of Jetboil and Olicamp fuels (identical starting weight). I will use two Snow Peak Giga stoves, and try to have them at the same medium-low flame setting (as close as I can). I will set them a foot apart on a patio table that I can watch from my chair while watching ball games. It is forecast to be about +20* F when it gets dark at 5 PM, dropping down to +10* F or even a bit below that over the next couple of hours. I will have an ambient temperature sensor (3-4 feet away from the stoves) that sends the number to my atomic clock inside, so I should be able to be fairly accurate with my numbers. Assuming that I can set each flame the same, I will see just how the JB and Olicamp canisters compare in performance. I am particularly interested in how they perform once the propane gets used up. I will also place a small “zipper pull” thermometer on the bottom of each canister, to try to measure the amount of self-cooling while in use. Wasting $10 in fuel to try to learn the limits of these canisters, but hey, it’s cheaper than going to the movies, right?

[Jerry Adams]

It’s expensive to refine the fuel to exact percentages, cheap to only be approximate.  Three decimal places could have been one measurement.

MSR fuel says N butane < 5% which would be fairly easy to accomplish.

That might also be the best fuel for low temps – propane is less useful because it boils off.

Maybe experiment running at full speed.  It takes me 2:45 minutes to boil when it’s warm.  When it starts getting cold, it could take 4 or 5 or 6 minutes.  At that point, I consider it about at it’s limit.

[Hikin’ Jim]

propane is less useful because it boils off

Well, kinda yes, kinda no.  The propane and isobutane are both hydrocarbons.  They in effect blend together and become one mixture, a mixture that has a boiling point somewhere between the boiling points of the constituent fuels (propane -44F/-42C; isobutane 11F/-12C).  Now, the propane does have higher vapor pressure and does leave the mixture at a faster rate than the isobutane does, but so long as there is even a fraction of propane left, the mixture has a lower boiling point than the boiling point of isobutane alone.  The lower the boiling point, the better the cold weather performance.  The net result is that you get more of the isobutane burned by adding the propane.  So, the propane is useful.

Let me give you an example.  These won’t be real figures but instead are made up figures to illustrate a point.

Let’s say you have two canisters.  Canister A has 25 g propane and 85 g isobutane.  Canister B has 110 g of 100% isobutane (yes, there’s always going to be some n-butane present, but for the sake of the example, let’s say it’s 100%).  Now let’s say that you’re cooking at a temperature just slightly above the boiling point of isobutane.  Let’s ignore internal canister cooling due to the liquid to gas phase change for the sake of the example.

Cooking with canister A, you’d get at least 25 g of usable fuel from the propane alone but the propane is in effect going to “carry” (“carry” used here as expression; yes, I know that’s not what’s happening from a chemistry standpoint) some of the isobutane with it because of the higher vapor pressure of the propane-isobutane mix (as compared to 100% isobutane).  Let’s say, for the sake of illustration, 25 g of isobutane is burned along with 25 g of propane.  So, from your propane-isobutane mix, you’ll burn 50 g total of fuel (again, not real figures; the figures are intended to illustrate the point), much of that with pretty decent canister pressure.

By contrast, canister B will have sluggish performance from the get go.  You may only wind up having 5 g of usable fuel.

So you see, by adding the propane, we’ve made 20 additional grams of isobutane usable as fuel (25 g of isobutane burned from canister A vs. only 5 g from canister B).  The propane is actually pretty important in cold weather.

HJ

[Hikin’ Jim]

Next Tuesday night I will do my head-to-head comparison test of 4 oz. canisters of Jetboil and Olicamp fuels (identical starting weight).

I’m really interested in hearing your results.  Toward the end of the canister, they should be about the same since both should be 100% isobutane (yes, with a small fraction of n-butane mixed in).  At the beginning of the canister when both have a good fraction of propane, I’m thinking that there won’t be a noticeable difference.

It’s in the middle of the life of the canister that I would expect to see some difference.  One or the other of the two fuels will run out of propane first, and then you should see noticeable pressure difference, particularly if you’re operating near 10F which is very close to the boiling point of isobutane (11F/-12C).  Somewhere in there, given that internal canister cooling will occur, you’re going to get really insipid performance.  100% isobutane + internal canister cooling + operating at 10F is going to make canister practically non-existent.

HJ

 

[Jerry Adams]

yeah, +1

the problem is how to have a usable stove without carrying extra weight

if you can only use the first half of a canister because the propane boils off, then you have to carry around an extra 4 ounces (if you have an 8 ounce canister)

on the other hand, if it’s cold and you have to start with a full canister even though you only need half, that’s not a bad strategy

[Hikin’ Jim]

Well, that’s where canister warming comes in.  Recall that you need the canister to be about 20F/10C above the boiling point in order to have decent pressure.   Isobutane boils at 11F/-12C, so if you put the canister in a bowl of water, you’ll be above that needed 20 degree (Fahrenheit) mark, so long as the water remains liquid.

See:  https://seattlebackpackersmagazine.com/stoves-for-cold-weather/

Bob’s metal strip will work better at colder temperatures, but beware.  Too much heat, and KABOOM!

Water on the other hand is pretty safe so long as it’s not overly hot.  Canisters are rated to at least 50C/122F, so as long as your water feels no more than warm, you should have no problem.

HJ

 

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